Author Topic: Going organic and getting a bit more rise  (Read 4006 times)

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Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #20 on: January 24, 2013, 06:52:40 PM »
Annie, sounds great.  Is this syrup or powder?

If you're going to do small scale testing, you might want to track down a jewelers scale to weigh out the malt to make sure you're adding a precise weight.


Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #21 on: January 24, 2013, 07:20:13 PM »
Annie,

You will want to be sure that you have a pure diastatic malt. There are some products that are sold as diastatic malt but also contain flour and dextrose. LaSaffre sells a few such products. That is one of the reasons why I mentioned the two malt suppliers in my earlier post. I'm sure that you should be able to get a sample of a proper diastatic malt. Norma did that with a nondiastatic malt from Malt Products Corporation. I think that she also got a sample of another product from Briess.

FYI, the expanded dough calculating tool includes diastatic malt as an ingredient. My recollection is that in designing that tool we used the data from Bob's Red Mill diastatic malt retail product for conversion from weight to volume. But if you weigh the diastatic malt as scott123 suggested, you should be in good shape.

Peter

EDIT (2/17/13): Due to an error in the expanded dough calculating tool, when using the diastatic malt in that tool, the volume measurements shown in the output data should be multiplied by a factor of ten.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2013, 09:35:22 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #22 on: January 24, 2013, 09:31:48 PM »
Annie,

I do have two kinds of dry malt and if you want to try them I can send you some.  The one is the dry malt DME-B that I posted the picture of at 223 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg154873.html#msg154873  The phone number for Malt products is at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13820.msg154130.html#msg154130   There is also the malt from Briess http://www.briess.com/food/Products/nsmaltex.php You probably could get samples like I did.

Norma
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Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2013, 06:21:35 PM »
Thank you Norma, I will check those out.

As far as today's testing, the normal hydration (64%) organic batch did rise better in the oven, and browned marginally better, and lost a bit of that bottom 'crunch' but tasted just as salty and didn't have great texture. The crust was pretty soft inside the shell, almost a bit, well, not quite gummy, but certainly not chewy.

I think malt it is.

I'll check with the homebrew place and make sure I am getting pure diastalic malt, they seemed pretty confident in what they were getting me, but probably good to doublecheck!

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #24 on: January 25, 2013, 07:10:24 PM »
Annie, I was looking at the King Arthur link that Peter posted and apparently that contains flour and dextrose.

http://www.kingarthurflour.com/shop/items/diastatic-malt-powder-16-oz

Even if it isn't pure, I still say pull the trigger and use more (.6%, according to KA- assuming the densities between the malt powder and flour are similar). Bird in hand, I believe is the phrase?  ;D

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 03:46:32 PM »
Okay! Finally got the malt in, it is the KA brand.

Reading over some info and looking at your responses, Scott, you think the .6% is a good ball park to start with? I am going to make a batch with it tomorrow.

Thanks!

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 06:22:59 PM »
Annie, I went back and took another look at the KA page, and it appears that they're recommending 1/2 to 1 t. powder to 3 cups flour for any flour, even flours that are already malted. Because of this, you're going to want to use more than what they recommend. 

Working with a diluted form of diastatic malt, without any idea what level of dilution is involved, is not ideal.  No matter what, there's going to be some trial and error. My inclination is to go big. Because we could be dealing with a heavily diluted product, I think you'll save experimentation time by attempting to overshoot the mark, end up with gumminess, and then back it down, rather than the traditional diastatic approach of inching up from very little.

With this in mind, I say start with 1.2%.  It's aggressive, but I'd much rather it end up being a bit gummy and dialing it back, then to start too low and end up inching our way up to what could very well be as high as 3%.

Since dextrose is the first ingredient, dial back the sugar in your recipe- maybe to .5%

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 09:41:55 AM »
Great, I will give this a go this morning.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2013, 06:24:27 PM »
And the results are.......awesome.

I went with my sugar level at .6%, and added the malt at 1.2% and the outcome was fantastic.

Perfect amount of browning, I'd say even better 'feel' than the conventional, and no more of that salty, bitter aftertaste. Plus no more 'stale' crunch. It came out really, really good, and I am super happy about that!

Thanks for all your awesome help, it looks like I may be able to make this switch after all!


Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 12:50:43 AM »
Annie, I'm happy that the malt powder worked out so well for you and that it's allowing you to go with the organic flour you were hoping to bake with.

As you move forward, here are a few thoughts.

First, as we've discussed in the past, while bromated All Trumps has the NY style market share by a wide margin and I've heard good things about the Sperry organic flour, I get the feeling that General Mills doesn't put a lot of time and energy into the unbromated line. Knowing what we know about Giusto's, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the High Performance was a vastly superior quality flour to the unbromated AT.  What I'm trying to get at here, is that, just because you've concocted a lovely malted blend that's, off the bat, outperforming the AT, I wouldn't necessarily, at this point, just accept better-than-AT as a goal.  I would try an .8% malt powder and I'd also try a 1.6%.  You may very well end up back at 1.2%, but I'd still see if you can get a little more out of the equation.

Secondly, the KA malt powder feels a lot like it's being targeted towards the home baker, the hobbyist. While KA is a respectable miller, I can't help but be the littlest bit concerned that a product marketed towards hobbyists might not have the tightest tolerances.  The enzyme activity in the powder is crucial.  Even slight variations from batch to batch could mess with the quality of your pies.

I'm not saying you have to lie awake at night over this, but, if you can eventually track down a commercial diastatic malt, I think that would be a wise move.  Because diastatic malt, in it's pure form, is so potent, unlike flour that's cost-prohibitive to ship, you should be able to have diastatic malt shipped from remote areas without paying an arm and a leg. You also might save yourself a little money going this route.  1.2% might not seem like a lot of powder, but, over time, with your volume, it could add up. KA is not renowned for being cost effective.

Again, I'm happy that your malt experiment was so successful.


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2013, 06:34:13 PM »
Hi Scott-

Yeah I talked to my homebrew people about larger quantities and options on the malt. They have access to a brand called Briess. I looked it up, it seems reputable, and is sold in 50lb bags. They are looking into cost and availability for me.

I notice on the Briess website that they have a listing on their products of enzyme activity levels;

http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php

I can't seem to find the same on the KA sample I used. What is a typical range of enzyme activity that I should be shooting for should I continue along the same lines of dough making that I currently do? My initial guess is that the 'Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain' listed on their web with an enzyme level of 210 degrees is what I am looking for, correct?

If the Briess is going to be difficult to come by, then yes I am going to do some shopping.

Thanks!

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2013, 01:43:59 AM »
Annie, yes, I'd shoot for the 210 degree product, as that should be the most cost effective. Knowing what I know about KA, though, any Briess product in a 50 lb. quantity should be more cost effective, so if you can't get the 210, but can get something else, I'd pull the trigger on that.

Thanks to the fact that KA doesn't list the degrees lintner for their malt powder, the switch over to Briess will require some trial and error. We got lucky with the 1.2% quantity, so maybe we'll get lucky again :) Perhaps, if you wanted to contact KA, they might tell you the Lintner value for the diastatic malt powder product.

Looking at the ingredients of the Briess products, it looks like the KA powder could be something very similar to the Maltorose™ 100 (half as strong as the 210 stuff), the Maltorose™ 60 (1/3 as strong) or the Maltorose™ Dough improver (1/10th as strong).  That's more permutations than I like, but it's not like we're flying blind.

There's a really good chance the KA and Briess powders might be identical products (or extremely close analogs), but I feel a bit better about the industrial scope of the Briess line and the degrees lintner values that they list. The professional vibe is encouraging.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2013, 08:56:03 AM »
As noted earlier in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg232673.html#msg232673, Briess is not the only major supplier of malt products. Malt Products Corporation is also a major player, and they specify the Lintner values for their products at http://maltproducts.com/products.malt.html. Red Star is another supplier: http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60.

Peter

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2013, 08:17:27 PM »
Thanks for the notes on those and the other malt options. Turns out my homebrew supply place cannot get the malt in a 50lb bag, so I am on my own on getting one shipped in. I'll check these other links out and am planning on making some phone calls this week!

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2013, 09:18:16 AM »
Sounds good, Annie. Let us know how your bulk diastatic malt quest turns out.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2013, 09:22:51 PM »
Hi there-

I just received some samples from Briess directly. This will probably be the company I go with as they will sell and ship wholesale to me (provided of course I get a good outcome with the malt)

They sent me two different malt samples, one is their basic malted barley flour that has an enzyme activity level of 210. I am guessing this is pretty high... and the second is their Maltrose dough improver which has an activity level of 20.

I am going to make some more test batches tomorrow, but am a bit confused and was interested in some clarification on the amount to add to my dough.

The sales rep at Briess on the phone today mentioned that her recommendation would be to add the malted barley flour at 3-5%, but the Maltrose dough improver at only 1% for my first trial.

My question is, I'm curious as to the significantly lower amount of the dough improver opposed to the malted barley flour. Am I wrong in my interpretation of the enzyme activity level as sort of it's 'power'?? and if so, shouldn't the dough improver need that greater percentage? or does the addition of things like dextrose skew that idea?

Secondly, have any of you guys had experience with a blend like the 'dough improver' and have thoughts either way in regards to using that vs just the straight up barley flour?

Thanks!

Just curious.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 09:24:53 PM »
I just re-read Peteza's post and saw that you mention to stay away from the 'dough improver' type blends.

Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Obviously I don't have any opinion either way at this point, just like knowing your experiences!

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 02:40:39 PM »
Annie, the enzyme activity level is, as you surmised, most definitely it's "power." The dextrose component is just like adding sugar, which, at these levels, as you found out yourself, is not that significant. I can come up with some rough guesstimate quantities for testing, but before I do that, you might want to give Briess another call and confirm those recommendations. It sounds like whoever you spoke with might have gotten their numbers reversed.

The other piece of information you might want to inquire about is cost. Shipping will most likely be a large part of the total cost, so I'm guessing the purer product should be more cost effective than the dextrose cut version. If this is the case, then I wouldn't experiment with the dextrose–y stuff at all. The only caveat to working with the the stronger version might be shelf life. Ask them how long the product is good for under typical storage conditions.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 03:48:33 PM »
I just re-read Peteza's post and saw that you mention to stay away from the 'dough improver' type blends.
Annie,

I did not intend to categorically rule out products other than pure diastatic malt. I was operating under the premise that pure diastatic malt would be used and, if such were the case, you would want to be sure that the product was pure diastatic malt, not one of the more sophisticated malt products that malt producers produce for professionals. As home pizza makers, we have little occasion to use some of the more sophisticated malt products. That is one of the reasons why I suggested that you talk with the companies that offer such products. They are usually in the best position to advise you as to the many possible options based on your particular needs.

Peter

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2013, 10:30:56 PM »
Hi Guys-

So I think I have it figured out! I ended up going with about 1% Diastalic Malt and all seems to be good so far!

I say 'about' 1% because I had a super awesome baker's calculator saved that was easy enough for me to figure out, and the link no longer works...hmmm. I get hopelessly turned around with Tom's calculator. Maybe a blond thing....

On another note; oddly enough I ended up needing to keep my sugar level at the same as it was prior to adding the malt. I wasn't getting the browning I wanted with just malt alone, and upping the malt levels led to gumminess.

Anyway, the next step is to get back on the bulk bandwagon and see if I can't figure that out. Of course, this brings up some questions:

1. For a commercial size batch of dough, I assume that I need to ferment in something large enough to allow for doubling in size, correct? I was thinking trash can, or very large tupperware tub. Any thoughts on containers?

2. Do you have to put anything in the container in order to get the dough back out? coat it in flour?

3. Scott, you mentioned that your technique is an overnight ferment at room temp, cut and ball the dough, then allow another 24 hrs in the walk-in. I read some articles on here about bulk fermenting and specifically found the link to the various experiments done with varying times of warm vs cold ferment times. It was pretty fascinating.

4. Scott you also mentioned altering yeast quantities.

5. Since we hand stretch and toss our dough, should I be prepared for any unforeseen difficulties in doing this with a bulk batch? We throw a 20" house pie, so good workability is a must.

That's about all I can think of right now, unless anyone has a link to a bakers calculator that is fit for, like, calculations for dummies or something.

Thanks!


 

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