Author Topic: Going organic and getting a bit more rise  (Read 5858 times)

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Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #25 on: February 12, 2013, 03:46:32 PM »
Okay! Finally got the malt in, it is the KA brand.

Reading over some info and looking at your responses, Scott, you think the .6% is a good ball park to start with? I am going to make a batch with it tomorrow.

Thanks!


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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #26 on: February 12, 2013, 06:22:59 PM »
Annie, I went back and took another look at the KA page, and it appears that they're recommending 1/2 to 1 t. powder to 3 cups flour for any flour, even flours that are already malted. Because of this, you're going to want to use more than what they recommend. 

Working with a diluted form of diastatic malt, without any idea what level of dilution is involved, is not ideal.  No matter what, there's going to be some trial and error. My inclination is to go big. Because we could be dealing with a heavily diluted product, I think you'll save experimentation time by attempting to overshoot the mark, end up with gumminess, and then back it down, rather than the traditional diastatic approach of inching up from very little.

With this in mind, I say start with 1.2%.  It's aggressive, but I'd much rather it end up being a bit gummy and dialing it back, then to start too low and end up inching our way up to what could very well be as high as 3%.

Since dextrose is the first ingredient, dial back the sugar in your recipe- maybe to .5%

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2013, 09:41:55 AM »
Great, I will give this a go this morning.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2013, 06:24:27 PM »
And the results are.......awesome.

I went with my sugar level at .6%, and added the malt at 1.2% and the outcome was fantastic.

Perfect amount of browning, I'd say even better 'feel' than the conventional, and no more of that salty, bitter aftertaste. Plus no more 'stale' crunch. It came out really, really good, and I am super happy about that!

Thanks for all your awesome help, it looks like I may be able to make this switch after all!


scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2013, 12:50:43 AM »
Annie, I'm happy that the malt powder worked out so well for you and that it's allowing you to go with the organic flour you were hoping to bake with.

As you move forward, here are a few thoughts.

First, as we've discussed in the past, while bromated All Trumps has the NY style market share by a wide margin and I've heard good things about the Sperry organic flour, I get the feeling that General Mills doesn't put a lot of time and energy into the unbromated line. Knowing what we know about Giusto's, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the High Performance was a vastly superior quality flour to the unbromated AT.  What I'm trying to get at here, is that, just because you've concocted a lovely malted blend that's, off the bat, outperforming the AT, I wouldn't necessarily, at this point, just accept better-than-AT as a goal.  I would try an .8% malt powder and I'd also try a 1.6%.  You may very well end up back at 1.2%, but I'd still see if you can get a little more out of the equation.

Secondly, the KA malt powder feels a lot like it's being targeted towards the home baker, the hobbyist. While KA is a respectable miller, I can't help but be the littlest bit concerned that a product marketed towards hobbyists might not have the tightest tolerances.  The enzyme activity in the powder is crucial.  Even slight variations from batch to batch could mess with the quality of your pies.

I'm not saying you have to lie awake at night over this, but, if you can eventually track down a commercial diastatic malt, I think that would be a wise move.  Because diastatic malt, in it's pure form, is so potent, unlike flour that's cost-prohibitive to ship, you should be able to have diastatic malt shipped from remote areas without paying an arm and a leg. You also might save yourself a little money going this route.  1.2% might not seem like a lot of powder, but, over time, with your volume, it could add up. KA is not renowned for being cost effective.

Again, I'm happy that your malt experiment was so successful.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #30 on: February 15, 2013, 06:34:13 PM »
Hi Scott-

Yeah I talked to my homebrew people about larger quantities and options on the malt. They have access to a brand called Briess. I looked it up, it seems reputable, and is sold in 50lb bags. They are looking into cost and availability for me.

I notice on the Briess website that they have a listing on their products of enzyme activity levels;

http://www.briess.com/food/Products/mimbf.php

I can't seem to find the same on the KA sample I used. What is a typical range of enzyme activity that I should be shooting for should I continue along the same lines of dough making that I currently do? My initial guess is that the 'Malted Barley Flour Whole Grain' listed on their web with an enzyme level of 210 degrees is what I am looking for, correct?

If the Briess is going to be difficult to come by, then yes I am going to do some shopping.

Thanks!

scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2013, 01:43:59 AM »
Annie, yes, I'd shoot for the 210 degree product, as that should be the most cost effective. Knowing what I know about KA, though, any Briess product in a 50 lb. quantity should be more cost effective, so if you can't get the 210, but can get something else, I'd pull the trigger on that.

Thanks to the fact that KA doesn't list the degrees lintner for their malt powder, the switch over to Briess will require some trial and error. We got lucky with the 1.2% quantity, so maybe we'll get lucky again :) Perhaps, if you wanted to contact KA, they might tell you the Lintner value for the diastatic malt powder product.

Looking at the ingredients of the Briess products, it looks like the KA powder could be something very similar to the Maltorose™ 100 (half as strong as the 210 stuff), the Maltorose™ 60 (1/3 as strong) or the Maltorose™ Dough improver (1/10th as strong).  That's more permutations than I like, but it's not like we're flying blind.

There's a really good chance the KA and Briess powders might be identical products (or extremely close analogs), but I feel a bit better about the industrial scope of the Briess line and the degrees lintner values that they list. The professional vibe is encouraging.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2013, 08:56:03 AM »
As noted earlier in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.msg232673.html#msg232673, Briess is not the only major supplier of malt products. Malt Products Corporation is also a major player, and they specify the Lintner values for their products at http://maltproducts.com/products.malt.html. Red Star is another supplier: http://www.lesaffreyeastcorp.com/products/malted-ingredients/red-star-dry-malt-product-60.

Peter

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #33 on: February 23, 2013, 08:17:27 PM »
Thanks for the notes on those and the other malt options. Turns out my homebrew supply place cannot get the malt in a 50lb bag, so I am on my own on getting one shipped in. I'll check these other links out and am planning on making some phone calls this week!


scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #34 on: February 24, 2013, 09:18:16 AM »
Sounds good, Annie. Let us know how your bulk diastatic malt quest turns out.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2013, 09:22:51 PM »
Hi there-

I just received some samples from Briess directly. This will probably be the company I go with as they will sell and ship wholesale to me (provided of course I get a good outcome with the malt)

They sent me two different malt samples, one is their basic malted barley flour that has an enzyme activity level of 210. I am guessing this is pretty high... and the second is their Maltrose dough improver which has an activity level of 20.

I am going to make some more test batches tomorrow, but am a bit confused and was interested in some clarification on the amount to add to my dough.

The sales rep at Briess on the phone today mentioned that her recommendation would be to add the malted barley flour at 3-5%, but the Maltrose dough improver at only 1% for my first trial.

My question is, I'm curious as to the significantly lower amount of the dough improver opposed to the malted barley flour. Am I wrong in my interpretation of the enzyme activity level as sort of it's 'power'?? and if so, shouldn't the dough improver need that greater percentage? or does the addition of things like dextrose skew that idea?

Secondly, have any of you guys had experience with a blend like the 'dough improver' and have thoughts either way in regards to using that vs just the straight up barley flour?

Thanks!

Just curious.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2013, 09:24:53 PM »
I just re-read Peteza's post and saw that you mention to stay away from the 'dough improver' type blends.

Just curious as to your thoughts on this. Obviously I don't have any opinion either way at this point, just like knowing your experiences!

scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #37 on: March 06, 2013, 02:40:39 PM »
Annie, the enzyme activity level is, as you surmised, most definitely it's "power." The dextrose component is just like adding sugar, which, at these levels, as you found out yourself, is not that significant. I can come up with some rough guesstimate quantities for testing, but before I do that, you might want to give Briess another call and confirm those recommendations. It sounds like whoever you spoke with might have gotten their numbers reversed.

The other piece of information you might want to inquire about is cost. Shipping will most likely be a large part of the total cost, so I'm guessing the purer product should be more cost effective than the dextrose cut version. If this is the case, then I wouldn't experiment with the dextrose–y stuff at all. The only caveat to working with the the stronger version might be shelf life. Ask them how long the product is good for under typical storage conditions.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #38 on: March 06, 2013, 03:48:33 PM »
I just re-read Peteza's post and saw that you mention to stay away from the 'dough improver' type blends.
Annie,

I did not intend to categorically rule out products other than pure diastatic malt. I was operating under the premise that pure diastatic malt would be used and, if such were the case, you would want to be sure that the product was pure diastatic malt, not one of the more sophisticated malt products that malt producers produce for professionals. As home pizza makers, we have little occasion to use some of the more sophisticated malt products. That is one of the reasons why I suggested that you talk with the companies that offer such products. They are usually in the best position to advise you as to the many possible options based on your particular needs.

Peter

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #39 on: April 03, 2013, 10:30:56 PM »
Hi Guys-

So I think I have it figured out! I ended up going with about 1% Diastalic Malt and all seems to be good so far!

I say 'about' 1% because I had a super awesome baker's calculator saved that was easy enough for me to figure out, and the link no longer works...hmmm. I get hopelessly turned around with Tom's calculator. Maybe a blond thing....

On another note; oddly enough I ended up needing to keep my sugar level at the same as it was prior to adding the malt. I wasn't getting the browning I wanted with just malt alone, and upping the malt levels led to gumminess.

Anyway, the next step is to get back on the bulk bandwagon and see if I can't figure that out. Of course, this brings up some questions:

1. For a commercial size batch of dough, I assume that I need to ferment in something large enough to allow for doubling in size, correct? I was thinking trash can, or very large tupperware tub. Any thoughts on containers?

2. Do you have to put anything in the container in order to get the dough back out? coat it in flour?

3. Scott, you mentioned that your technique is an overnight ferment at room temp, cut and ball the dough, then allow another 24 hrs in the walk-in. I read some articles on here about bulk fermenting and specifically found the link to the various experiments done with varying times of warm vs cold ferment times. It was pretty fascinating.

4. Scott you also mentioned altering yeast quantities.

5. Since we hand stretch and toss our dough, should I be prepared for any unforeseen difficulties in doing this with a bulk batch? We throw a 20" house pie, so good workability is a must.

That's about all I can think of right now, unless anyone has a link to a bakers calculator that is fit for, like, calculations for dummies or something.

Thanks!

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 08:59:43 AM »
I say 'about' 1% because I had a super awesome baker's calculator saved that was easy enough for me to figure out, and the link no longer works...
Annie,

Can you show us the baker's calculator link that you were using even though it is dead? It might be in the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 09:19:20 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but why not use a 20 degree-L dry malt powder? A one pound bag is about the same size as a bag of IDY and you can get it from any bakery ingredient supplier. Just be sure to keep it tightly closed so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and lump up. In almost all cases, all you ever need of the dry malt powder is about 0.25% based on the flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 07:11:50 PM »
Annie,

Can you show us the baker's calculator link that you were using even though it is dead? It might be in the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

Hi Peter-

I should clarify, the result doesn't even show up on my Google search anymore, if I remember correctly it was on the Fresh Loaf website, but I could be wrong. It gave the bakers percentage calculations for, really, everything I needed to calculate for ingredient wise. I've been scouring the world wide web and can't seem to find it.


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 07:15:23 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but why not use a 20 degree-L dry malt powder? A one pound bag is about the same size as a bag of IDY and you can get it from any bakery ingredient supplier. Just be sure to keep it tightly closed so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and lump up. In almost all cases, all you ever need of the dry malt powder is about 0.25% based on the flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom-

I did end up going with a 20 degree dry malt powder from Briess and it has been working great. It seems like the magic number has been .32 lb weight of the powder. Less and I am still getting that stale crunch and lackluster rise that Scott made reference of. More than that and I am getting gumminess in the crust and a really floppy slice. So far the results have been great and I am getting good results with the Guisto's organic.


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 07:16:23 PM »
Hi Peter-

I should clarify, the result doesn't even show up on my Google search anymore, if I remember correctly it was on the Fresh Loaf website, but I could be wrong. It gave the bakers percentage calculations for, really, everything I needed to calculate for ingredient wise. I've been scouring the world wide web and can't seem to find it.

I thought I had it saved....but didn't.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2013, 07:22:53 PM »
I found the now dead link, it was on foodartisan.net.....bummer

scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2013, 02:43:12 AM »
On another note; oddly enough I ended up needing to keep my sugar level at the same as it was prior to adding the malt. I wasn't getting the browning I wanted with just malt alone, and upping the malt levels led to gumminess.


Just to confirm, this is the Maltorose™ Dough Improver that you're using, right? Is it safe to assume that KA malt powder outperformed the Breiss?

Quote
1. For a commercial size batch of dough, I assume that I need to ferment in something large enough to allow for doubling in size, correct? I was thinking trash can, or very large tupperware tub. Any thoughts on containers?

Tupperware is fine, although I'm not sure how large tupperware goes. You might get into hot water with your food inspector if you use a trash can for food, as the material might not be food safe. You might touch base with your health department and see what kind of containers they approve.  If you want to play it really safe, I'd go with cambro:

http://cool.cambro.com/Camwear_Boxes_Food_Boxes_Storage.ashx

If the health department gives the okay for other materials, then your typical walmart/home depot storage bin might do the trick.  I might go towards clear plastic.  Perhaps something like this:

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/911642/Iris-44-Quart-Plastic-Storage-Box/

If you watch this Anthony Mangieri video (00:35),



you'll see he's using something similar for his pre-ferment.  He's also adding flour to a rubbermaid bin on the floor.

You might want to experiment with something cheap and then, after everything is running smoothly, then maybe move up to cambro, depending on what your health department says.

Quote
2. Do you have to put anything in the container in order to get the dough back out? coat it in flour?

This is a good question.  There's a few variables involved, such as dough tackiness (a result of hydration/gluten development) and container material.  If the dough is relatively non tacky, you should be able to get it out of the bulk container with just a plastic scraper.  If in doubt, there's nothing wrong with a very light oiling.

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4. Scott you also mentioned altering yeast quantities.

Yes, if you're going with a room temp bulk, you're doing two things to accelerate fermentation activity. The act of bulk fermentation accelerates yeast activity in itself because the core of the dough is insulated by the outer layer, retains heat, and ferments a bit faster.  You're also, by fermenting at room temp, going to really ramp up the yeast.  I would start with something pretty drastically low, perhaps .05% yeast, and see how much it expands overnight.  You don't want it to double, necessarily, prior to balling, but you do want some increase in volume.  The goal is less about doubling prior to balling and more about doubling/tripling prior to stretching.  Whatever yeast amount/pre-ball volume gets you to a 2x/3x pre-stretch volume, that's the winner.

One pain in the behind about the process you use to determine yeast quantities is that scale is integral to bulk fermentation.  If you fine tune this for a small scale test batch, you're going to have to do further yeast adjustments for a production size batch.   I might start with a relatively small test batch, just so you're not wasting too much if the results are way off. Be conservative with the yeast. It's better to not have the test dough ready and have to use it a day later than to have it overflowing from your bulk container.

The most important aspect of a room temp ferment is that you need a stable room temp. If the area where you're bulk fermenting varies more than about 6 degrees, then I might rethink the bulk. 

Beyond yeast, one other consideration of a bulk ferment is the tendency, imo, for gluten to get a bit more sensitive after fermenting a bit.  A late ball could really ramp up your gluten development if you're not careful. Ball gently.  No kneading during the ball, just one or two times over itself and pinch to shut. You also might want to back off the initial knead a bit to compensate. If you're cold fermenting, you really shouldn't be kneading that much anyway.

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5. Since we hand stretch and toss our dough, should I be prepared for any unforeseen difficulties in doing this with a bulk batch? We throw a 20" house pie, so good workability is a must.

Annie, it's important to remember that you're not really doing anything terribly different with a bulk ferment than a balled one.  When you ferment in bulk, you're saving space and accelerating the fermentation rate a bit. As long as you dial back the yeast enough, you'll be fine.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 02:45:50 AM by scott123 »

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 09:20:50 AM »
If it is necessary or desirable to wipe or brush the dough balls with oil, it is common among pizza professionals to use an inexpensive oil to coat the dough balls. For example, the dough balls can use olive oil but be brushed/wiped with salad oil (vegetable oil). Tom Lehmann does this sort of thing all the time: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1731&p=8933&hilit=#p8933. Of course, this is not mandatory. One can use the same oil in and on the dough balls if desired.

Peter