Author Topic: Going organic and getting a bit more rise  (Read 3576 times)

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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #40 on: April 04, 2013, 08:59:43 AM »
I say 'about' 1% because I had a super awesome baker's calculator saved that was easy enough for me to figure out, and the link no longer works...
Annie,

Can you show us the baker's calculator link that you were using even though it is dead? It might be in the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #41 on: April 04, 2013, 09:19:20 AM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but why not use a 20 degree-L dry malt powder? A one pound bag is about the same size as a bag of IDY and you can get it from any bakery ingredient supplier. Just be sure to keep it tightly closed so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and lump up. In almost all cases, all you ever need of the dry malt powder is about 0.25% based on the flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #42 on: April 04, 2013, 07:11:50 PM »
Annie,

Can you show us the baker's calculator link that you were using even though it is dead? It might be in the Wayback Machine archives.

Peter

Hi Peter-

I should clarify, the result doesn't even show up on my Google search anymore, if I remember correctly it was on the Fresh Loaf website, but I could be wrong. It gave the bakers percentage calculations for, really, everything I needed to calculate for ingredient wise. I've been scouring the world wide web and can't seem to find it.


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #43 on: April 04, 2013, 07:15:23 PM »
Maybe I'm missing something, but why not use a 20 degree-L dry malt powder? A one pound bag is about the same size as a bag of IDY and you can get it from any bakery ingredient supplier. Just be sure to keep it tightly closed so it doesn't absorb moisture from the air and lump up. In almost all cases, all you ever need of the dry malt powder is about 0.25% based on the flour weight.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Hi Tom-

I did end up going with a 20 degree dry malt powder from Briess and it has been working great. It seems like the magic number has been .32 lb weight of the powder. Less and I am still getting that stale crunch and lackluster rise that Scott made reference of. More than that and I am getting gumminess in the crust and a really floppy slice. So far the results have been great and I am getting good results with the Guisto's organic.


Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #44 on: April 04, 2013, 07:16:23 PM »
Hi Peter-

I should clarify, the result doesn't even show up on my Google search anymore, if I remember correctly it was on the Fresh Loaf website, but I could be wrong. It gave the bakers percentage calculations for, really, everything I needed to calculate for ingredient wise. I've been scouring the world wide web and can't seem to find it.

I thought I had it saved....but didn't.

Offline AnnieK

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #45 on: April 04, 2013, 07:22:53 PM »
I found the now dead link, it was on foodartisan.net.....bummer

Offline scott123

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #46 on: April 07, 2013, 02:43:12 AM »
On another note; oddly enough I ended up needing to keep my sugar level at the same as it was prior to adding the malt. I wasn't getting the browning I wanted with just malt alone, and upping the malt levels led to gumminess.


Just to confirm, this is the Maltorose™ Dough Improver that you're using, right? Is it safe to assume that KA malt powder outperformed the Breiss?

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1. For a commercial size batch of dough, I assume that I need to ferment in something large enough to allow for doubling in size, correct? I was thinking trash can, or very large tupperware tub. Any thoughts on containers?


Tupperware is fine, although I'm not sure how large tupperware goes. You might get into hot water with your food inspector if you use a trash can for food, as the material might not be food safe. You might touch base with your health department and see what kind of containers they approve.  If you want to play it really safe, I'd go with cambro:

http://cool.cambro.com/Camwear_Boxes_Food_Boxes_Storage.ashx

If the health department gives the okay for other materials, then your typical walmart/home depot storage bin might do the trick.  I might go towards clear plastic.  Perhaps something like this:

http://www.officedepot.com/a/products/911642/Iris-44-Quart-Plastic-Storage-Box/

If you watch this Anthony Mangieri video (00:35),

NATURALLY RISEN


you'll see he's using something similar for his pre-ferment.  He's also adding flour to a rubbermaid bin on the floor.

You might want to experiment with something cheap and then, after everything is running smoothly, then maybe move up to cambro, depending on what your health department says.

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2. Do you have to put anything in the container in order to get the dough back out? coat it in flour?


This is a good question.  There's a few variables involved, such as dough tackiness (a result of hydration/gluten development) and container material.  If the dough is relatively non tacky, you should be able to get it out of the bulk container with just a plastic scraper.  If in doubt, there's nothing wrong with a very light oiling.

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4. Scott you also mentioned altering yeast quantities.


Yes, if you're going with a room temp bulk, you're doing two things to accelerate fermentation activity. The act of bulk fermentation accelerates yeast activity in itself because the core of the dough is insulated by the outer layer, retains heat, and ferments a bit faster.  You're also, by fermenting at room temp, going to really ramp up the yeast.  I would start with something pretty drastically low, perhaps .05% yeast, and see how much it expands overnight.  You don't want it to double, necessarily, prior to balling, but you do want some increase in volume.  The goal is less about doubling prior to balling and more about doubling/tripling prior to stretching.  Whatever yeast amount/pre-ball volume gets you to a 2x/3x pre-stretch volume, that's the winner.

One pain in the behind about the process you use to determine yeast quantities is that scale is integral to bulk fermentation.  If you fine tune this for a small scale test batch, you're going to have to do further yeast adjustments for a production size batch.   I might start with a relatively small test batch, just so you're not wasting too much if the results are way off. Be conservative with the yeast. It's better to not have the test dough ready and have to use it a day later than to have it overflowing from your bulk container.

The most important aspect of a room temp ferment is that you need a stable room temp. If the area where you're bulk fermenting varies more than about 6 degrees, then I might rethink the bulk. 

Beyond yeast, one other consideration of a bulk ferment is the tendency, imo, for gluten to get a bit more sensitive after fermenting a bit.  A late ball could really ramp up your gluten development if you're not careful. Ball gently.  No kneading during the ball, just one or two times over itself and pinch to shut. You also might want to back off the initial knead a bit to compensate. If you're cold fermenting, you really shouldn't be kneading that much anyway.

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5. Since we hand stretch and toss our dough, should I be prepared for any unforeseen difficulties in doing this with a bulk batch? We throw a 20" house pie, so good workability is a must.


Annie, it's important to remember that you're not really doing anything terribly different with a bulk ferment than a balled one.  When you ferment in bulk, you're saving space and accelerating the fermentation rate a bit. As long as you dial back the yeast enough, you'll be fine.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 02:45:50 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Going organic and getting a bit more rise
« Reply #47 on: April 07, 2013, 09:20:50 AM »
If it is necessary or desirable to wipe or brush the dough balls with oil, it is common among pizza professionals to use an inexpensive oil to coat the dough balls. For example, the dough balls can use olive oil but be brushed/wiped with salad oil (vegetable oil). Tom Lehmann does this sort of thing all the time: http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1731&p=8933&hilit=#p8933. Of course, this is not mandatory. One can use the same oil in and on the dough balls if desired.

Peter


 

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