Just switched to Bosch, dough doesn't seem to turn out right -advice?

[pbspelly]

So I just switched to a Bosch Universal Plus after several years with a KitchenAid.  I'm liking the fact that I can make bigger batches, but so far my dough isn't getting that nice glossy look and feel that you get when the gluten is well formed. The cooked pizza also came out much flatter and more like bread, without the good irregular air holes. Do you have to run the dough for longer periods of time with a Bosch then the KitchenAid? I used to run the KitchenAid for about 8 or 9 minutes on the dough hook and it would come out great.  How long do I run it on the Bosch, and is there some trick to it? Do I have to start experimenting with my recipe? I'd hate to feel like I was longing for my KitchenAid, particularly after it broke down due to all the bread and pizza I was making, and I shelled out for the Bosch.

[Ev]

I like my Bosch. What style pizza are you making? what's your formula?

[pbspelly]

New York style (makes two pies):

23.6 oz high gluten all trumps flour
.1 oz IDY
.4 oz salt
15.4 oz cold water
.25 oz olive oil

Worked great on my KitchenAid Artisan mixer. Until the mixer broke, that is.

After my first poor effort with the Bosch, I thought maybe it was too small a batch for the Bosch, so I doubled it for the next go around (47.2 oz flour) but still had trouble getting that good gloss feel that I used to get with my Kitchenaid.  I haven't cooked the second batch yet, but I'm not overly optimistic.

[widespreadpizza]

pbs,  dont worry so much about the look,  worry about the results.  make sure you are adding the water first.  then try this.  mix for 1 minute on low,  the only speed you need to use.  let the dough rest for 10 minutes,  or up to 20.  then mix for 5-7 minutes,  towards the lesser if you are doing a long fermentation.  lastly,  let the dough rest after mixing,  5 minutes of so,  covered preferably.  then divide,  and shape.  after this rest,  you should have a pretty to very smooth dough ball.  Remember, appearance is not the only thing that matters.  There is little doubt that the bosch is a superior machine that will NOT break.  the money was well spent.  -marc


edit: it just occured to me,  you are dealing with a lower friction factor now.  your dough will be cooler out of the bowl than with the ka.  this will effect your fermentation schedule and or yeast amounts.

[scott r]

well said marc.... I second all of that!

I have been mixing even less.... 5 minutes is plenty for what im looking for, but I do tend to go long on on the ferments.   

good luck!   

[Ev]

As do I. Only 4 minutes for High protein flour and 6 or 7 for 00 flour.

[pbspelly]

Thanks for the replies.  I'll give it a shot using your advice. Much appreciated.

[kneader65]

Pbs,

Looks like we are in the same boat.Not happy with my Bosch Universal either.Your hydration level is around the 65% mark and your dough batch is rather small.You would have noticed the dough clinging onto the centre shaft most of the time without being kneaded by the steel arms.You may knead to operate it at  speed 3 or 4 to get any kneading effect at all.I have not had much success with my bigger batch of 1.7kg dough at 60% hydration level either.I used to handknead before buying the Bosch and I could get a shiny soft dough after about 15 minutes of kneading.I am not getting a similar dough even after 15 minutes on the Bosch.I am not surprised as the dough is receiving very little kneading in the machine.

[Jet_deck]

Pbs,

Looks like we are in the same boat.Not happy with my Bosch Universal either.Your hydration level is around the 65% mark and your dough batch is rather small.You would have noticed the dough clinging onto the centre shaft most of the time without being kneaded by the steel arms.You may knead to operate it at  speed 3 or 4 to get any kneading effect at all.I have not had much success with my bigger batch of 1.7kg dough at 60% hydration level either.I used to handknead before buying the Bosch and I could get a shiny soft dough after about 15 minutes of kneading.I am not getting a similar dough even after 15 minutes on the Bosch.I am not surprised as the dough is receiving very little kneading in the machine.

Is your dough creeping up the center as well?

[JConk007]

Really love my Bosch UP yes wheelhouse for me with this machine is around 1500-2000 G of flour I use 00. same time .. rest .. all those goodies. You will nail it and be quite happy in time for sure !
John

[kneader65]

Is your dough creeping up the center as well?

Yes it constantly creeps up the shaft and creeps into the shaft hollow space making it hard to clean.If I put in the plastic dough divider with fins,there is some protection as it covers the over the slot

[Chicago Bob]

Yes it constantly creeps up the shaft and creeps into the shaft hollow space making it hard to clean.If I put in the plastic dough divider with fins,there is some protection as it covers the over the slot

Sounds like a real drag man.....4lbs flour and she turns into a fart blossom that requires special cleaning?
Anemic...

[widespreadpizza]

Kneader,  I do not know the exact source of your problems,  but I think it is batch size and or hydration or both.  These tools are meant to help.  This machine is a workhorse IMO and some people worry far too much about the appearance of the dough and kneading too much in general.  Hope this might help. Large batches is the key with this machine,  and that is why most people buy it-Marc

http://www.breadtopia.com/store/bosch-dough-glide-tool.html

http://www.breadtopia.com/store/dough-mixer-tool.html

[pbspelly]

Had another not-so-good experience. 

47.2 oz high gluten all trumps flour
.2 oz IDY
.8 oz salt
30.8 oz cold water (40 degrees)
.5 oz olive oil

I mixed all of the flour with 28.8 oz water for a minute on low (level 1). Let it rest for 15.  Then added the IDY and the salt (dissolved in 2 ounces of water) and mixed on low (1) for another minute.  Added the olive oil and mixed for 5 minutes on low (1).  Then I let it all sit for 5 minutes.

Came out really gloppy.  Even the color seems different than what I used to get with my KA.

[Jet_deck]

Yes it constantly creeps up the shaft and creeps into the shaft hollow space making it hard to clean.If I put in the plastic dough divider with fins,there is some protection as it covers the over the slot

I fixed mine here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15815.0.html#top

[The Dough Doctor]

PB;
Our research has shown that pizza dough is best mixed to a point of under development. The best way to describe it is to say that the dough should be mixed just until it begins to take on a smooth, satiny appearance. Anymore mixing than this will over develop the gluten for the characteristics that we're looking for in a pizza crust, namely an open, porous crumb structure. Over mixing of the dough typically results in a more "bread like" sound familiar? finished crumb structure. I'm used to seeing mixing times in the 4 to 6-minute range, but it is difficult to say if that is correct for your flour and mixer load. In any case, you might want to look at a series of doughs with progressively less mixing time to see if that helps.
Good luck with your new mixer, once you get it sorted out you'll love it.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

[kneader65]

I fixed mine here:  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15815.0.html#top

Jet_deck:The profile of the third flat arm of the kneader in my Bosch(bought in December 2012) is different from the one shown in your photo.The top end of the arm is 40mm wide and the bottom tip is 28mm wide.The gap between the flat arm and the centre post is 4mm.With the dough wider in position the gap reduces to 2mm.But the changes have not had the desired impact as the dough still creeps up.

[Jackie Tran]

Kneader.  I will take a stab at providing you a solution without having looked at the recipe you are using.  Your hydration is likely a bit too high for this mixer.  Before you tell me that the recipe worked just fine in your previous mixer, lower the hydration by 3% and see if that doesn't mix better.   Aside from that post up the recipe and detailed methods you are using to mix the dough and members can better help you.   I would also implement the advice you have already been given.  When it comes to making pizza dough there are indeed many ways to skin the same cat and they do indeed produce different results.  There may not be a wrong way, but there certainly is a better way.  It's no accident there are many experienced members here that like their Bosch Universal mixer.

[Serpentelli]

4lbs flour and she turns into a fart blossom?

Bob,

You are awesome, my friend! May I use that quote at work tomorrow?

John K

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

You are awesome, my friend! May I use that quote at work tomorrow?

John K

Mmmm.....yeah sure, why the hell not man.