I GIVE UP! (Lehmann percentages)

[tdub154420]

So this could be because I dont quite understand baker's percentages so correct me if I'm wrong but.... 

65% hydration does not a kneadable dough make. 

If I have this correct, 65% hydration for 3 cups of flour makes 1.95 cups for that 3 cups of flour. Well no matter how long I knead that dough it is closer to a batter than a dough.  Even when I added a half a cup of flour it remained sticky.  Not until I nearly added a whole nother cup of flour did it become kneadable dough, at which point the percentages were all for not.  What am I doing wrong? 

And just to make sure, Lehmann's percentages are to make New York Pizza right?  NY Pizza as in Anthony's, Sbarro, the Original Ray's right?  Super thin pizza you fold in on itself with fluffy crust.  I saw Lehmann make a pizza on youtube and it was definitely not NY style

[shuboyje]

Bakers percentage work only with weight, not volume.  That is why you are having the issues you are.

[tdub154420]

That is extremely helpful lol

But I do want to clarify, Lehmann's will make a giant foldable Anthony's type pizza right?

[Chicago Bob]

3 cups of flour weighs aprox 400 grams. Plug that number into the dough calculator tdub154420 along with 65% hydration and you'll see you need aprox a cup of water.

[shuboyje]

I've never worked with that particular formula, but here is a VERY long thread with lots of pizzas made with variations of it.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18407.0.html

[deb415611]

is there a particular version of the Lehman forumula that you want to use?  If you can link that and then tell us what what size you want I (or whoever is here first) can help you use the dough calculator that is here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html    It's a great tool and will give you volume measurements if you are not using a scale.

I don't know the video you are referring to but it's possible that it's another type of pizza and not NY,  I don't think that Tom works exclusively with NY style

[scott123]

That is extremely helpful lol

But I do want to clarify, Lehmann's will make a giant foldable Anthony's type pizza right?

Trevor, there are a pretty broad range of formulas that will give you an Anthony's type pizza, and the Lehman formula is as good as any other.  The formula isn't the primary player in NY style pizza, though. It's the oven setup and the thickness factor.  If you can't hit the right bake time or stretch the dough far enough, you won't get a good example of a classic foldable NY slice. What kind of bake times are you hitting presently?

[tdub154420]

Trevor, there are a pretty broad range of formulas that will give you an Anthony's type pizza, and the Lehman formula is as good as any other.  The formula isn't the primary player in NY style pizza, though. It's the oven setup and the thickness factor.  If you can't hit the right bake time or stretch the dough far enough, you won't get a good example of a classic foldable NY slice. What kind of bake times are you hitting presently?

I've been making my pizzas by placing it on my stone on the bottom rack in my conventional oven for 5 minutes.  I found this gives it the spring I need but doesn't really melt the cheese as well so I then move the pizza up to the top most rack for another 5 minutes. 

So to achieve spring and cheese browning my pizzas usually take 10 minutes. 

[tdub154420]

is there a particular version of the Lehman forumula that you want to use?  If you can link that and then tell us what what size you want I (or whoever is here first) can help you use the dough calculator that is here  http://www.pizzamaking.com/dough_calculator.html    It's a great tool and will give you volume measurements if you are not using a scale.

I don't know the video you are referring to but it's possible that it's another type of pizza and not NY,  I don't think that Tom works exclusively with NY style

I actually think I may invest in a scale today, thank you though. 

[scott123]

I've been making my pizzas by placing it on my stone on the bottom rack in my conventional oven for 5 minutes.  I found this gives it the spring I need but doesn't really melt the cheese as well so I then move the pizza up to the top most rack for another 5 minutes. 

So to achieve spring and cheese browning my pizzas usually take 10 minutes. 

Trevor, if you're going to produce an Anthony's pizza, you've got to trim that bake time down.

Tell me a bit about your oven. Gas or electric? If gas, is the broiler in the main compartment or in a drawer beneath?  Peak temp on the dial?  Peak temp measured by infrared thermometer? Convection feature?

[tdub154420]

Trevor, if you're going to produce an Anthony's pizza, you've got to trim that bake time down.

Tell me a bit about your oven. Gas or electric? If gas, is the broiler in the main compartment or in a drawer beneath?  Peak temp on the dial?  Peak temp measured by infrared thermometer? Convection feature?

It's an electric oven with an overhead broiler in the main compartment.  It's peak temp is 550 and it has no convection feature.  I considered investing in a infrared thermometer to see its peak temp, buy I skipped out so I don't know actually how hot it gets. 

I line the bottom rack with pizza tiles and it works great cooking the bottom of the pizza fast, the only problem is the top does not get any love. 

I tried once to build a tiny pizza oven inside my conventional oven with a bunch of oven bricks...it took like
2 hours to preheat and did not work too well. 

[scott123]

While it may get a tiny bit hotter at the bottom of the oven, it's not worth baking your pizza there if you end up having to move it to the top.

This won't solve all your problems, but moving the tiles closer to the broiler (within 5 to 7 inches) and using the broiler during the bake (and not moving the pizza), should help quite a bit.  With perhaps 3-4 minutes of broiling time as the pizza bakes on the pre-heated tiles, you should be able to trim the bake to around 7 minutes.

What thickness factor are you working with?

[tdub154420]

While it may get a tiny bit hotter at the bottom of the oven, it's not worth baking your pizza there if you end up having to move it to the top.

This won't solve all your problems, but moving the tiles closer to the broiler (within 5 to 7 inches) and using the broiler during the bake (and not moving the pizza), should help quite a bit.  With perhaps 3-4 minutes of broiling time as the pizza bakes on the pre-heated tiles, you should be able to trim the bake to around 7 minutes.

What thickness factor are you working with?

That's a term I still struggle with, I don't think I quite understand what the numbers associated with thickness factor represent.  I'm trying to achieve the thin foldable slice with a thick puffy crust, so when pumping the numbers in I usually go for the lowest thickness factor which I believe is 0.1. 

[scott123]

Trevor, thickness factor is technically ounces of dough per square inch of pizza, but that's not something you need to remember.  It's just the ratio of the dough to the size of the pizza.  With a given diameter pizza, as you increase the dough ball size, you increase the thickness factor.

I can't speak for Sbarro, which I think changes from franchise to franchise, and it's possible we're talking about different Anthony's pizzas, but there's only one Original Ray's

http://slice.seriouseats.com/archives/2010/02/where-is-the-original-first-rays-famous-pizzeria-nyc.html

This is, to me, about as quintessential as you can get to the archetypal NY slice.

It's not as thin as I go, but it's definitely not .1.  I would say .08, maybe .085, max. Start plugging in .085 into the calculator. It will change the nature of your pizza dramatically.

[c0mpl3x]

3c flour, 1 1/4c water, lands within 5% of 62% hydration in my experience.  1/2t sugar, 2/3t yeast, 1.5t salt, 1/2t oil, is a decent start