Author Topic: pizza hut thin crust???  (Read 5878 times)

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Offline scribble

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pizza hut thin crust???
« on: January 28, 2013, 09:36:07 AM »
I am looking for a recipe that will replicate the thin crust from Pizza Hut.  I want a slightl snap to it but also airy and not so dense.

I tried making the cracker recipe that was listed here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,105.0.html but it came out so cracker like I thought I was going to break a tooth. 

Could I have overcooked this thin crust to get such a tough crust.  I cooked it on a thin pizza pan in a convection over at 550, I did dock it before hand.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2013, 12:54:14 PM »
scribble,

To the best of my knowledge, there is no recipe on the forum for the Pizza Hut Thin 'N Crispy dough.

Pizza Hut has largely gone to frozen dough for its pizzas in the U.S. I don't know if this is true for the Thin 'N Crispy doughs, so it is possibe that the crusts for the Thin 'N Crispy pizzas, quite likely par-baked, are made for them by one or more third parties.

PH seems to have stopped publishing their ingredients lists for their pizzas, but in 2008 there were two versions of ingredients lists for the thin and crispy pizzas that they sold at that time, to wit:

Enriched flour bleached (wheat flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, soybean oil, yeast, salt
CONTAINS: WHEAT


and

Enriched bleached wheat flour (bleached flour, malted barley flour, niacin, ferrous sulfate, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid), water, partially hydrogenated vegetable oil, soybean &/or cottonseed oil, salt, yeast.

I am pretty sure that the second version is no longer being used because, as shown at http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/fats-and-oils/7954/2, partially hydrogenated fat (basically shortening) contains trans fats. PH does publish Nutrition information for its products, and if you look at the Nutrition Facts for its Thin 'N Crispy pizzas, at http://www.pizzahut.com/nutritionpizza.html, you will see that there are no trans fats in that product. That means that they are using oils, most likely soybean oil. Since the second ingredients list above has salt listed ahead of the yeast, that can mean that the dough was frozen.

It's quite possible that the crusts used by PH for its Thin 'N Crispy pizzas are par-baked and frozen until used, after defrosting, to fill orders. If so, if you purchase a simple cheese pizza you might be able to weigh the pizza and also get a rough idea as to the amount of pizza cheese and sauce used on that pizza.

You can see some of the other ingredients used by PH back in 2008 for its pizzas at http://www.pizzahut.com/files/pdf/pizza%20hut%20ingredient%20statements%20september%202008.pdf. Among other things, that document has ingredients lists for the sauces that PH uses on its pizzas. I would imagine that a worker at a PH store will tell you which sauce is used on its Thin 'N Crispy pizzas.

For possible flours usable for a PH Thin 'N Crispy crust, you can look at flours that fit the profile given above at the General Mills website at http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/flour/category/pizza. The big pizza chains do not use bromated flour, so you can rule out all flours that are bromated. You can also rule out flours that have ascorbic acid as an ingredient. FYI, the ingredients niacin, thiamine mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid are all B Vitamins that are added to the majority of white flours used in this country. Ferrous sulfate is a form of iron, which is another ingredient in domestic white flours. At the retail level, a flour that might work for your purposes is this one: http://www.wegmans.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=388484&storeId=10052&langId=-1.

The dough ingredients given in the above lists are in the order of predominance by weight. That means that there will be more flour by weight than water, more water by weight than oil, etc. That might help you construct a dough recipe to use.

Good luck.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above Pizza Hut pdf document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100602083641/http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%20September%202008.pdf
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:51:31 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2013, 02:42:34 PM »
Peter;
You are correct in the order of dominance for the ingredients, with a single caveat, the 2% rule. This states that once an ingredients is at or below the 2% level it no longer need to be shown in the order of predominance. With a lot of  baked items you can use salt as a marker, that is; salt is typically used at about the 2% level, so for any ingredients listed before the salt, it's a good bet that it will be used above the 2% level. In pizza though, salt is rarely used at that high of a level due to all of the other salt contributions, so my feeling is that oil might be a better indicator for the 2% level.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2013, 02:56:05 PM »
Peter;
You are correct in the order of dominance for the ingredients, with a single caveat, the 2% rule. This states that once an ingredients is at or below the 2% level it no longer need to be shown in the order of predominance. With a lot of  baked items you can use salt as a marker, that is; salt is typically used at about the 2% level, so for any ingredients listed before the salt, it's a good bet that it will be used above the 2% level. In pizza though, salt is rarely used at that high of a level due to all of the other salt contributions, so my feeling is that oil might be a better indicator for the 2% level.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Tom,

Thanks for adding that. I copied the two ingredients lists in my last post from Pizza Hut pdf documents. Fortunately, they did not use the 2% rule for the Thin 'N Crispy dough. I hate that rule because it makes it a lot harder, at least for me, to try to reverse engineer or clone the product in question, even with Nutrition Facts.

The 2% rule is shown for the pizza doughs at the top of the PH document at http://www.pizzahut.com/files/pdf/pizza%20hut%20ingredient%20statements%20september%202008.pdf. My take is that all of those doughs are frozen doughs than no one in his right mind would want to replicate. Thank God there are old PH pdf documents with the old ingredients lists still floating around for when PH made pizzas that were actually quite good.

Peter

EDIT (4/20/13): For the Wayback Machine link to the above Pizza Hut pdf document, see http://web.archive.org/web/20100602083641/http://www.pizzahut.com/Files/PDF/PIZZA%20HUT%20INGREDIENT%20STATEMENTS%20September%202008.pdf
« Last Edit: April 20, 2013, 06:50:34 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2013, 03:51:00 PM »
scribble,

To the best of my knowledge, there is no recipe on the forum for the Pizza Hut Thin 'N Crispy dough.



Peter
The type of information you went on to give scribble in that post.......does this possibly mean that you are up for giving the long elusive PH Thin an Crispy a go at cloning?
I have played around with it quite a bit myself in the past and would be more than happy(along with a number of others I'm sure)to assist in making this happen.
Thanks for your consideration.
Bob
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Offline scribble

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2013, 12:04:00 AM »
Is there any recipe that would give something similiar.  I am open to other suggestions since I either make a traditional style from what is supposed to be a cracker crust or my cracker crust turns out almost inedable.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2013, 12:14:56 AM »
Is there any recipe that would give something similiar.  I am open to other suggestions since I either make a traditional style from what is supposed to be a cracker crust or my cracker crust turns out almost inedable.
scribble,
Let's give this enough time for our overtaxed moderator ...Pete-zza to consider this subject matter.
I can help you get close....but let's see if we can get bonafied, kay?  ;)
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Offline scribble

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Re: Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2013, 06:32:36 AM »
Sounds good.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2013, 10:30:58 AM »
The type of information you went on to give scribble in that post.......does this possibly mean that you are up for giving the long elusive PH Thin an Crispy a go at cloning?
I have played around with it quite a bit myself in the past and would be more than happy(along with a number of others I'm sure)to assist in making this happen.
Bob,

No, it is unlikely that I will be attempting to reverse engineer and clone the PH Thin 'N Crispy dough. It was out of curiosity that I dug into the matter to the extent that I did. As you know from the Mellow Mushroom, NJ Boardwalk, Papa John's, Papa Gino's and Buddy's/Two Bill's clone threads, just to name a few in which I was intimately involved, it can take weeks and even months and sometimes even longer to reverse engineer and clone a popular dough recipe, and there may even be some out of pocket expenses for the people who do all of the work that never get reimbursed (Norma is a very good example of this). The problem is is that when the job is done and the recipe is finally posted, the ones who benefit the most are the ones who least deserve it. I don't mean the loyal members on the forum, and certainly not the members who participate in such projects. I am talking about the people who go to Google, search on expressions like "Papa John's clone" or "Papa John's copycat recipe", find this forum as a result of the search, register in order to be able to search, find and copy the recipe, and then leave, usually never to return again except possibly to find another clone recipe. There is rarely ever a simple "thank you", or any feedback on the recipe (although some come back for more help), they do not stay and become regulars, and certainly they make no donations to the forum as a way of saying "thank you".

I'm sure that a lot of the above is innocent behavior since we all search the Internet looking for recipes. However, I have always viewed reverse engineering and cloning someone else's recipe as a special and unique case. It is the hardest thing I know to do and if I am going to give it up I want there to be a tangible benefit to the forum. I don't want thousands of members registering on the forum looking only for clone recipes and little else.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2013, 10:33:54 AM »
Is there any recipe that would give something similiar.  I am open to other suggestions since I either make a traditional style from what is supposed to be a cracker crust or my cracker crust turns out almost inedable.
scribble,

I have never had a PH Thin 'N Crispy pizza so let me spend a little bit more time on this matter to see if I can identify something already on the forum that looks like it might be of interest to you.

Peter


Offline scribble

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #10 on: January 30, 2013, 11:33:09 AM »
Peter I appreciate all your help in this matter.  I extremely enjoy cooking at home and just recently got into baking and pizza dough making.  I really want to learn as much as I can so I can come up with new things on my own and don't have to rely on someone elses work. I think my big fault is not understanding the whole HYDRATION thing I hear everyone talking about and I don't understand.  I have maid 2 other crusts, one is a whole wheat honey that turned out good, I am not sure what type of pizza it would fit into as I have never really delt with classifying my pizza other than deep dish.  The other was a whole wheat recipe from Bobby Dean's Not My Mamma's Meals show that was supposed to be a tin crust but I must have done something wrong as it turned out like my other whole wheat ones.  I also hear about window pain but I am not sure what that means. 

I have so many pizza's in my head I would like to build but I don't really understand what I am doing so that isn't making things any better.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #11 on: January 30, 2013, 12:44:41 PM »
scribble,
There was a gentleman on the forum here several months ago who is the Head Chef for Pizza Inn. He provided us a thin crust pizza recipe that I think would be fun for us to try. Let me do a little digging around an I'll get back to you.
Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #12 on: January 30, 2013, 01:51:55 PM »
scribble,

I called a couple of local Pizza Huts and was told that the dough skins for the Thin 'N Crispy pizzas are delivered to their stores (that is, not made in-house) and they are not par-baked. That means that they come into the stores frozen and are defrosted before using to fulfill orders. That leads me to believe that PH is using something like the first ingredients list I posted, but because the PH Nutrition Facts show a lot of Sugars in the Thin 'N Crispy pizzas, I am led to believe that there is sugar also used in the dough and that is not indicated in the 2008 ingredients list I provided. I thought perhaps there was a lot of sugar in the sauce but I was told that they use their regular sauce for the Thin 'N Crispy pizzas, not the sweet one. There may be some Sugars in the cheese blend that PH uses, which quite likely is supplied by Leprino Foods, but there is no way of knowing what the Sugars amount to without seeing the Nutrition Facts for the cheese blend, which Leprino does not disclose publicly.

Under the circumstances, you might want to take a look at the following:
http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php and
http://www.pizzamaking.com/thincrust.php

I do not recall trying the second recipe above, but I and a few other members did a considerable amount of work on the first recipe and described the results in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5762.msg48991.html#msg48991.

A more recent and successful effort at making a crispy pizza style is disclosed in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18731.msg182731.html#msg182731. You will note in the opening post of that thread that Nick was also trying to emulate the PH Thin 'N Crispy pizza. Nick did not use any sugar in the dough, which makes his recipe closer in my opinion to what PH is now doing based on the PH Nutrition Facts at http://www.pizzahut.com/nutritionpizza.html. Nick's work may help you to come up with your own clone.

A couple of other threads that relate to what Nick did are http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18491.msg179789.html#msg179789 and http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,17996.msg174468.html#msg174468.

On the matter of hydration of a dough, that is a technical term that relates to the amount of water used to make the dough. It is calculated by taking the weight of water in the recipe and dividing that value by the weight of flour in the recipe. 

For now, I wouldn't worry about windowpaning of the dough. That applies more to more highly hydrated doughs that are used to make skins that are shaped and stretched and tossed by hand.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #13 on: January 30, 2013, 02:02:07 PM »
Peter,
 Do you remember the member name of the Chef for Pizza Inn or the name of the new restaurant chain that he was working on the menu for? Thanks.
Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #14 on: January 30, 2013, 02:16:59 PM »
Peter,
 Do you remember the member name of the Chef for Pizza Inn or the name of the new restaurant chain that he was working on the menu for? Thanks.
Bob
Bob,

Yes, I do. It is aawshads at Pie Five. Maybe it is Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19255.msg194073.html#msg194073 that you were looking for?

Peter

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #15 on: January 30, 2013, 02:28:59 PM »
Perfect Peter...thanks so much!
And yes, that linked directly to the recipe I had in mind.  :chef:

I know that Pizza Inn thin crust is a little different than PH's but I am hoping that aawshads recipe(done without a par baked crust) just might be something very close to an old school PH T&C. We'll see....
« Last Edit: January 30, 2013, 02:33:12 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #16 on: January 30, 2013, 03:27:56 PM »
Perfect Peter...thanks so much!
And yes, that linked directly to the recipe I had in mind.  :chef:

I know that Pizza Inn thin crust is a little different than PH's but I am hoping that aawshads recipe(done without a par baked crust) just might be something very close to an old school PH T&C. We'll see....
Bob,

The link that aawshads provided is the same one that I referenced in my last post to scribble (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18491.msg179789.html#msg179789), and is the one that Nick started out with. Also, in aawshads' post at Reply 24 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,19255.msg194073.html#msg194073, I believe that there is an error in the amount of sugar he suggested, 0.05%. I think he may have meant 0.50% since 0.05% sugar in Nick's recipe (e.g., the one at Reply 50 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18731.msg193829.html#msg193829) would be a bit less than 1/20th of a teaspoon. At 0.50%, the sugar would be equivalent to a bit less than a half teaspoon. That makes a lot more sense.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #17 on: January 30, 2013, 03:38:39 PM »
Yep, thanks...I noticed that. For my oven and pan setup I have a pretty good grasp on amounts of sugar to use in these pizzas.The oil part is what gets tricky(for me) to dial in the crisp/tenderness contrast. Usually takes a few TF trials to get the combo right.
I like experimenting with this style....
Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #18 on: January 30, 2013, 05:19:05 PM »
Bob,

I believe I figured out where all of the Sugars come from in the PH Thin 'N Crispy pizzas. To give you an idea of what I am talking about, according to the PH Nutrition Facts for a 12" Thin 'N Crispy cheese pizza (the easiest pizza to analyze), by my calculation there are 30.4-33.6 grams of Sugars in that pizza. If those Sugars were all table sugar (sucrose), we would be talking about 7.6-8.4 teaspoons of sugar. Of course, that would mean a very sweet pizza. It would be inedibly sweet. But, under FDA regulation, Sugars has a broader meaning than table sugar. Under FDA regulations, Sugars are defined as "the sum of all free mono- and disaccharides (such as glucose, fructose, lactose and sucrose)". In our case, I am pretty certain the the bulk of the Sugars comes from the cheese blend that PH uses on its pizzas. I have looked at PH ingredients over the years and there has not been a great number of changes in the composition of the cheese blends that PH has used. I am pretty certain that the supplier of the cheese blend to PH is Leprino Foods. The most recent ingredients list that I have found for the PH cheese blend is in this November, 2011 article: http://www.livestrong.com/article/550990-what-is-the-difference-between-pizza-hut-mozzarella-cheese-and-regular-mozzarella/. The ingredients listed in that article are "pasteurized milk, cheese cultures, salt, enzymes, modified food starch, whey protein concentrate, nonfat milk and sodium propionate". Those are the same ingredients as set forth in the 2008 pdf PH ingredients document that I referenced earlier. And the pasteurized cheese means part-skim mozzarella cheese.

Of the above listed ingredients, whey protein concentrate and nonfat milk both contain large amounts of Sugars (see http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/103/2 and http://nutritiondata.self.com/facts/dairy-and-egg-products/143/2). The reason why this is important is that there may be no sugar in the PH dough after all, especially if PH is using a sauce without sugar for its Thin 'N Crispy pizzas. However, there will be some Sugars from the tomatoes used for the PH pizza sauce. But the amounts of Sugars in the sauce will be small in relation to the Sugars in the PH cheese blend.

So, if you and scribble decide to proceed along the lines earlier discussed, I would not use any sugar in the dough, at least to start.

Peter



Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: pizza hut thin crust???
« Reply #19 on: January 30, 2013, 05:45:34 PM »
Great info as always Peter, thank you.
Yes, even at only .5% sugar I had noticed that Nick had more than enough browning going on and I really think this pizza's flavor profile does not benefit from sweetness so your observation is keen and quite applicable here, thanks.
I'm concerned/interested in the cheese selection. You have indicated part skim. It's no secret that people favor the old (70's) PH T&C. That pizza had a slight bit of pull...stringiness to it's cheese so I am thinking maybe try a blend of WM and PS. What blend ratio would you recommend(or other suggestion). Using today's cheeses, will I be able to cook this 'lil thin thing hot enough to get some "bite" out of the cheese without throwing everything else off kilter?
Thanks!
Bob
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