Where are you dough ?

[Morgan]

I keep it short or otherwise i will write this through the night.

I have made lots of pies for the past year, but this damn frozen pizza from the supermarket keeps bullyin me all the time.
Margherita is her name and she is made in Italy, Italians make it too good for me to stand it so this means war. I have to discover how to beat this
Italian Margherita or i will lose faith in myself.

It is all about the dough i know that, but where can i find her ?


There has been some speculation how to beat this pie on another thread so read it first: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,23071.0.html


This pie is pure evil, dont look the pictures too long otherwise...

[scott123]

The vuolukivi (soapstone) that I'm referring to looks like the stones in the back of this picture:

http://www.tulikivi.fi/tuotteet/Vuolukivi

You want to avoid vuolukivi that looks like this:

http://www.kaakelikeskus.net/sivu.php?id=96&info=3880

or this:

http://www.kotimaisetliikelahjat.fi/materiaalit_vuolukivi.asp

or this:

http://www.tulikivi.fi/kuvat/rakkivi/hiottupinta.jpg

[scott123]

Morgan, until you find a bigger piece of soapstone, the one you've got is your best material to bake with.  I don't know how comfortable you are with a peel, but launching an 11" pizza on a 300mm (11.8") stone is not that easy.  10.5" is really small for pizza, but, like I said, until you find a bigger stone, that's the largest I'd recommend.  I've plugged everything into the calculator

Flour (100%): Water (63%): ADY (.5%): Salt (1.75%): Oil (2%): Sugar (1%): Total (168.25%):

131.31 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs 82.73 g  |  2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs 0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp 2.3 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp 2.63 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp 1.31 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp 220.93 g | 7.79 oz | 0.49 lbs | TF = 0.09

Use, for now, 100% hiivaleipäjauho.  We might blend this with weaker flour depending on how tight the dough turns out.

Make the dough, mix it until it comes together and then knead it for another 2 minutes, until the dough is not quite lumpy, but not smooth either.

When you've made the dough ball(s) post a photo of them here.

Use a cold rise 24h + 2-6h room temp ferment. If the dough doesn't at least double in that time, leave it at room temp until it does. Take a photo of the dough after fermenting. If you're using clear proofing containers, take a shot of the underside of the dough.

[Morgan]

The vuolukivi (soapstone) that I'm referring to looks like the stones in the back of this picture:

http://www.tulikivi.fi/tuotteet/Vuolukivi

My soapstone is colored like that when it was new, but when baked something greasy it will change the color of the stone to much darker.

I don't know how comfortable you are with a peel, but launching an 11" pizza on a 300mm (11.8") stone is not that easy.  10.5" is really small for pizza, but, like I said, until you find a bigger stone, that's the largest I'd recommend.  I've plugged everything into the calculator

Very comfortable! I make about 10-12" pies and launch them with wooden peel all the time no worries on this. I have to try the granite because thats a bigger one 30x380x380mm it covers like 99% of the oven.

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
ADY (.5%):
Salt (1.75%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (1%):
Total (168.25%):
   131.31 g  |  4.63 oz | 0.29 lbs
82.73 g  |  2.92 oz | 0.18 lbs
0.66 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.17 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
2.3 g | 0.08 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.41 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
2.63 g | 0.09 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.58 tsp | 0.19 tbsp
1.31 g | 0.05 oz | 0 lbs | 0.33 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
220.93 g | 7.79 oz | 0.49 lbs | TF = 0.09

I usually put first water and mix it with yeast then add oil, salt and sugar (if used), do i use the same method on this one ?
Dough seems pretty wet at 63%, i tought that it wont work properly in a home oven, but i will test it for shure.

[Morgan]

Baking tomorrow instead of sunday. Just made some dough and there clearly seems to be different colors which i didn't noticed on a flour.
This flour and dough feels very tight if you know what i mean by that, maybe the hydration also makes it feel bit tougher. I hand kneaded it just a little after machine.

Picture is the batch which Scott123 recommended.

I made one dough out of sämpyläjauho:

Flour (100%): Water (60%): IDY (0.17%): Salt (1.5%): Oil (2%): Sugar (2%): Total (165.67%): Single Ball:

543.25 g  |  19.16 oz | 1.2 lbs 325.95 g  |  11.5 oz | 0.72 lbs 0.92 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.31 tsp | 0.1 tbsp 8.15 g | 0.29 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.46 tsp | 0.49 tbsp 10.86 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.41 tsp | 0.8 tbsp 10.86 g | 0.38 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.73 tsp | 0.91 tbsp 900 g | 31.75 oz | 1.98 lbs | TF = N/A 225 g | 7.94 oz | 0.5 lbs

[Morgan]

When you've made the dough ball(s) post a photo of them here.

Just made the dough balls. I made three patches and the one you suggested was the best by far. I put them to rest in a plastic box, baking in about one hour.
Doesn't look so good, but it felt really good.

[Morgan]

Just baked some pies.

First one is pepperoni + pineapple and the second is pepperoni + smoked bacon.

[Morgan]

This one pie was my own patch using sämpyläjauho, used only sauce and smoked gouda cheese on this one. Granite stone in my opinion is working very nicely!

[Morgan]

Pies were ok, but nothing compared to the supermarket margherita. Dough doesnt have the same airy texture and the taste is way off not even close.

What would i try next ?

[scott123]

You just had to use the granite, didn't you Morgan?   

Seriously, though, you can agree that there was some progress, right? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the frozen pie and 1 being where you were before, what number would place this at?

You had mentioned that the 14% protein flour made a wet dough, but then, a day later, you talk about making another dough that was 'tight.' Was this the same flour?

While I like the protein percentage in the flour, I'm not in love with the 'coarsely milled' aspect or the specs in the photo.  Keep using that flour for now, but I don't think your flour search is over.

Goal: Finely milled white flour with 12.5% to 14% protein with no added ingredients- except malted flour if you can get it, but you probably can't. Btw, I might have discouraged you from using 00 earlier.  If you can get 00 in the 12.5% to 14% protein realm, get it.

Lose the sämpyläjauho. Lose the granite.  For now, stick to the soapstone and hiivaleipäjauho, but go soapstone and flour shopping. Larger thicker whiter soapstone and more finely ground, whiter flour.  Both will move you closer to the frozen pizza result.

[Morgan]

You just had to use the granite, didn't you Morgan?  

Seriously, though, you can agree that there was some progress, right? On a scale of 1 to 10, with 10 being the frozen pie and 1 being where you were before, what number would place this at?

You had mentioned that the 14% protein flour made a wet dough, but then, a day later, you talk about making another dough that was 'tight.' Was this the same flour?

While I like the protein percentage in the flour, I'm not in love with the 'coarsely milled' aspect or the specs in the photo.  Keep using that flour for now, but I don't think your flour search is over.

Goal: Finely milled white flour with 12.5% to 14% protein with no added ingredients- except malted flour if you can get it, but you probably can't. BTW, I might have discouraged you from using 00 earlier.  If you can get 00 in the 12.5% to 14% protein realm, get it.

Lose the sämpyläjauho. Lose the granite.  For now, stick to the soapstone and hiivaleipäjauho, but go soapstone and flour shopping. Larger thicker whiter soapstone and more finely ground, whiter flour.  Both will move you closer to the frozen pizza result.

Nothing wrong with granite

There was some improvement for sure, i could say these were 8 worth of pies and before they were 7. These took 5 minutes on oven.

Sämpyläjauho 14% dough was pretty tight and would not stretch so easy. I will keep the granite until i get something else, this baked the bottoms better than any of my other stones.

Should i try mix the 00 with some other flour ? How about all purpose flour ?

Maybe i could also test 00 with some added sugar ?

[scott123]

Morgan, besides the potential danger of exploding, granite is an especially poor conductor. If you're absolutely certain that the granite gave you better bottom browning than the vuolukivi, then forget looking for better/larger vuolukivi.  Start shopping around for either 1/2" steel or 1/2" aluminum.  Both will provide you the bake times necessary to produce the kind of explosive wood fired oven-ish quality the frozen pizza has.

Sämpyläjauho contains oat, rye and barley. Oat, rye and barley have absolutely no place in the pizza you're attempting to recreate.  It also makes it difficult for me to judge the hiivaleipäjauho dough, since it's difficult to tell which flour is used for which photo.  It would help me immeasurably to be able to see a photo of a hiivaleipäjauho dough ball right after being formed and right before being baked, preferably with the pre-bake ball in a clear container and the photo taken of the underside.

00 means the that the flour is finely ground, but you can have high protein 00 or low protein.  You should be seeking out a high protein 00.  Look for 00 with a photo of pizza on the packaging. Labels like 'All Purpose' don't signify much.  Your selection is based entirely on protein.  Either it's 100% finely ground white flour (no specs of anything other than white), with no other ingredients and it's between 12.5g and 14g per 100g and you buy it, or it's not and you keep looking. Pizzeria 00 (usually with a pizza picture on label), should be 12.7%ish protein. Keep your eye out for that. Remember, though, to check the label for every flour you come across.

[Morgan]

Hiivaleipä doughball picture is on this page, took picture right after i made formed the balls.

[scott123]

Oh, okay, sorry, you mentioned Sämpyläjauho in the same post and wasn't sure if the photo was of that.

Which are these?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23178.0;attach=69790;image

[Morgan]

Oh, okay, sorry, you mentioned Sämpyläjauho in the same post and wasn't sure if the photo was of that.

Which are these?

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=23178.0;attach=69790;image

That is the hiivaleipä dough which you suggested. All the dough pictures are the same patch.

[scott123]

Got it.  I'm still definitely not liking the spots on the hiivaleipä. I'm not seeing bran, but I'm still picking up a whole wheat/whole meal-y kind of vibe.

Finland has to have something in the way of decent pizza flour. It may not be easy to find, but it has to be available somewhere.

I did a little digging:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Marriage-Finest-Strong-White-Flour/dp/B002E2LOF2/ref=sr_1_22?ie=UTF8&qid=1359934800&sr=8-22

The shipping charges are most likely going to run you quite a few times the actual cost of the flour, but, at least, after working with this flour, you'll know what to look for in a locally available flour.

[Morgan]

Thanks Scott you are too nice! Thanks really for all the help you allready given I could order this from Helsinki, maybe good ?

http://www.molinitandoi.it/index.php?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage-tandoi.tpl&product_id=21&category_id=3&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=13&lang=it

I have tipo 00 flours, but only 10,2gr of protein so maybe not best for pizza like you said earlier.

[scott123]

The 12.5% protein is good in the flour in that link, but the 0 type is not.  00 is a finer grind than 0. I'm not ruling it out completely, but if you can get 00 with 12.5%+ protein that would be ideal.

[Morgan]

Ok i have to test it some day just to make sure. Amazon dont ship flours to Finland i tried allready for some other flours. Just to make sure, pure white and very fine flour is what im after with 12.5gr of protein.

[scott123]

Actually, the shipping is handled by the marketplace seller and, in this instance, it looks like they ship to the rest of Europe:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/aag/details/ref=aag_m_ss?ie=UTF8&asin=&isAmazonFulfilled=&isCBA=&marketplaceID=A1F83G8C2ARO7P&seller=A30WXP82Z9GQ6N#aag_legalInfo

It's going to be super expensive, about £18 for 1.5 kg of flour, but at least it gives you a benchmark for what you should be looking for.

Now, this is just what I came up with after a brief search.  There may be online grocers that are closer to you that might have less expensive shipping.  You also might want to touch base with Marriages and see if they export flour to any bakeries/grocers in Finland and see if you can purchase it from them.  I can confirm that Marriages is good flour.

As far as your local search goes, yes, very fine, pure white and 12.5%-14% protein.