Author Topic: Gluten question  (Read 708 times)

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Offline dantinap

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Gluten question
« on: February 10, 2015, 10:14:39 AM »
Hey guys, I'm currently struggling with problems during dough opening. The dough is way to extensible and tender. I need it to be more elastic and resistant to the stretching technique. The recipe Im using is for the same day.

 My flour has 10% protein (can't get a higher one)
I have 57.5 % water and 7.3 % oil.
Use 1.75 % salt, 5.91 % sugar, and .56 % IDY.

Firstly, I sift the flour, then pour it gradually into the water - oil mix (with the salt and sugar already dissolved in the water) and at last I add the yeast. I hand knead the dough for 9 minutes, ball it and let the dough ferment inside a platic bowl with it's lid for 2 hrs, and use it. At the moment of taking the ball to stretch it, it is too extensible. I wish it was more elastic and strong, to make the shaping much easier. I wish to achieve a strength that allows me to comfortably hand toss the pizza without causing too much trouble (like tearing. stretching too much too fast, etc)

I read in here that letting it cold ferment adds strength, but I also read that the protease enzyme gradually weaknes gluten with time, so I guess cold fermenting leaves the dough with the same strength.

What other options do I have? Kneading the dough more time? If I obtain more strength in the dough, does it proportionally reduce it's extensibility? Cause I understand that the current airy interior I'm achieving (which is awesome) relies on the dough extensibility. So If I get a stronger dough the interior will be less airy right? Thanks guys! :P


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #1 on: February 10, 2015, 11:22:32 AM »
dantinap,

Your recipe reminds me a lot of the "emergency" Papa John's clone dough recipe that I described at Reply 52 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312. In my case, I used a higher protein/gluten flour than you used and I used honey instead of sugar.

I see a couple of possible problem areas with your recipe. First, if you are using an all-purpose flour with 10% protein, along with a hydration value of 57.5% and 7.3% oil, the combination of the hydration and oil percents is 64.8%. In my opinion, that is too high. Since oil also has a wetting effect on the dough, you might want to adjust the hydration and oil values to be closer to around 60%, which is roughly the rated absorption value of all-purpose flours as used in the U.S.  You might even have to go less than 60%. And if you are sifting the flour, you may need even further adjustment of the hydration and oil values.

A second potential problem area is that all-purpose flours in Mexico are known to have high starch damage. This is a problem that can result in doughs that are on the wet or clammy side and highly extensible. I can't say that you do not have the best flour but it is something you might have to look into at some point. But you might try following the above advice first, plus any advice that Tom might offer, before considering finding a better flour.

To simplify matters further, you might also add the IDY to the flour at the outset inasmuch as I do not see any benefit to adding it later as you did. Tom often also suggests that the oil be added later in the dough making process, however in my experience in a home setting using a standard KitchenAid stand mixer, trying to incorporate large amounts of oil later in the dough making process can be quite difficult.

Since you mentioned the protease enzymes, I will mention that the protease enzymes go to work fairly quickly but it can take a fair amount of time for them to dismantle the gluten matrix. I don't see that as a problem with the short-term dough that you have been trying to make.

Peter 


Offline vtsteve

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #2 on: February 10, 2015, 12:48:02 PM »
I would try starting with *no* oil, and add back as much as you can once you find a way to build enough strength. Bring your salt up to at least 2%, and after kneading, do several sets of stretch-and-folds, every 20 minutes for at least an hour (3 sets minimum, 6 sets is better).

If you use a room-temperature solid fat, up to 3% fat can increase your dough strength.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #3 on: February 10, 2015, 01:23:42 PM »
Steve,

Since Daniel (dantinap) indicated at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34902.msg347192#msg347192 that he was planning a business venture with his pizza making, I stayed away from methods like stretch and fold. Also, since Daniel had posted over at the Papa John's clone thread, it occurred to me that he might have been looking to make a Papa John's type of pizza but using an emergency type dough.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #4 on: February 10, 2015, 04:28:53 PM »
Steve,

Since Daniel (dantinap) indicated at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34902.msg347192#msg347192 that he was planning a business venture with his pizza making, I stayed away from methods like stretch and fold. Also, since Daniel had posted over at the Papa John's clone thread, it occurred to me that he might have been looking to make a Papa John's type of pizza but using an emergency type dough.

Peter

Thanks Pete and Steve  :D. 4 factors of the pizza are the ones I'm trying to improve right now. They are: flavor, strength, airness and wetness/humidity.
Right now Im focusing on strength.

With strength I mean the ability of the dough to be stretched without tearing, or being to extensible that the risk of it getting overthin is big. I wish to obtain a dough that is easy to work with, but till now I'm still getting doughs that are very "soft", very extensible. I'm looking for  a dough like this ()


These are the Strength factors I know so far. I have learned about them in other posts, however I have yet to understand the way these strength factors correlate. I have some doubts in some of them, If someone knows the answer, please help me clarify my understanding about them  :)

-Flour (quantity of protein) and other minerals. And now I know Quality of Starch factor thanks to Pete.
-Amount of water: Builds gluten mixing with the protein in the flour.
-Amount of oil: Makes the dough more extensible.
-Temperature of dough: Warmer doughs are more prone to be more extensible than cold doughs.
-Time of fermentation: some fermentation products (alcohol, acids) weaken the gluten matrix. So the longer the fermentation, the weaker the dough gets.
-Time of resting: If you leave a dough to rest, even without any yeast, the protease enzyme makes the matrix weaker over time, BUT also, gluten continues to form with the mechanical activity of the dough's weight. Also, leaving the dough to rest over time helps to relax the ALREADY FORMED gluten (make it more extensible).
-Kneading time: the longer you knead, the stronger the dough gets, meaning it gets more elastic and tough, and less extensible.

So, returning to me unfortunatly "too extensible", "weak" doughs. I have the above choices.
-The flour is the best choice in my city so far. So getting higher protein is not an option right now =S.
-Reducing the amount of water and oil is one option, however, even with the water and oil percentages I pointed in the first post, I get dough that is a bit "dry", probably because I use a big gas oven with a stone flour. I dont want to get even drier dough by lowering hydration levels. I have  tried using pizza screens and it helps to keep the dough not that dry.
-Temperature of dough: perhaps this is a good factor to modify, cause it will keep the hydrations levels and make the dough less extensible. Perhaps a cold ferment is the solution.
-Time of fermentation: this is an emergency dough, as Pete said, but I plan to make a 2 or 3 day dough in the future, for all the magic a long fermentation does for the flavor and color of the dough.
-Time of kneading: this is another factor I consider to be the best to get a stronger dough and also keeping the hydration values. Currently I handknead for 4 minutes, then add the oil to the dough like Tom Lehmann has suggested before, then continue hand kneading for 9 minutes. So its a 13 minute hand knead. Increasing it might get me that strong dough.
-Time of rest: maybe reballing the dough before baking, will make it less extensible.

Are those factors relating to dough strength correct? If you know any other let me know so I can include them in my experiments  :-\

Thanks!

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #5 on: February 10, 2015, 06:13:09 PM »
Daniel,

I'm surprised that your dough using a flour with a 10% protein content, a hydration value of 57.5%, and oil at 7.3% yielded a dough that was "dry". However, that said, having experimented previously with sifting of flour, I found that the dough felt fairly dry even at a high hydration value. You can see examples at Reply 56 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3985.msg39803#msg39803. So, you might want to skip sifting the flour the next time and see if that helps.

If you can provide the ingredients of the flour you have been using, that might be helpful. I know that Mexican flours often have conditioners that we don't often use for pizza dough in the U.S., although I am somewhat skeptical that such conditioners would be behind the results you achieved. I may have a better idea if I see the ingredients list.

I suspect that the dough shown in the Tony Gemignani video you referenced was made using a commercial mixer and a flour that was on the high side from the standpoint of protein content. So, his dough would be quite robust, better than you are likely to achieve in a home setting. Some time ago, with Tony's help, I converted a dough recipe that he used in a FoodNetwork video to baker's percent format, at Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8032.msg79723.html#msg79723. As you can see from that recipe, the combined hydration value and oil percent was just under 61%. However, that recipe was before Tony became really famous but he has fairly consistently used a high protein, high-gluten flour for his NY style pizzas. Further, in his most recent book (The Pizza Bible), for a dough that is based on the NY style, Tony recommends a flour with a protein content of 13-14%. With that flour, he is able to use a hydration of 65% for his recipe, with about 1% oil, although I don't know how the dough handles. A dough with an effective hydration of around 66% is not the easiest dough to handle. Most professionals who specialize in the NY style use a hydration of around 57-61%, even for a high-gluten flour.

Your summary of the factors that are involved in making a dough with good handling qualities seems correct and complete in my opinion. However, one thing I would not do is to reball the dough just before using. That will only make the dough too elastic and it can take a long rest period for the gluten matrix to recover and become usable again.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #6 on: February 10, 2015, 09:04:26 PM »
The flour I'm using is San Blas, you said while ago that you know it :D. Tomorrow I will upload the info at the back of the bag. The protein content is of 11 %  ;D, I wrote 10 % earlier perhaps because I was hungry  :-D
Yea it's has been coming kind of dry, but only after baking. When kneading and mixing it is very, very sticky, even a little annoying to knead by hand. Thats what I used a pizza screen today, and it helped a little to keep the moisture level a bit higher inside the dough (I had been baking directly on the stone). Today I tried baking the dough at  572°F, for 8 minutes till it got to the crisp and color state I like.
Tony Gemignani got that beautiful dough with a high protein flour, with a certain percentage of water. Is it possible to get a dough with the same strength by: using a lower protein flour, but also lowering the water percentage?.



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #7 on: February 10, 2015, 09:29:34 PM »
Daniel,

Thanks for clarifying what you meant about the dry crust, as opposed to the dough. I will perhaps revisit this matter after you provide the information about the San Blas. Yes, I remember that you were using the San Blas but the 10% protein number threw me off.

Can you tell me what weight of dough ball you are using and also the size of the pizza made with that dough ball? Also, can you describe how you bake the pizza, including the type and model of oven, the rack position, the bake temperature, the bake time, etc.?

Peter


Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #8 on: February 10, 2015, 10:12:39 PM »
Yep. The dough ball is 292 grams / 10.29 oz. to make a pizza of 25 cm/ 9.84 '' diameter. I think the thickness factor is 0.1353, similar to your Papa John's Clone Recipe.
Normally I pre heat the oven 10 minutes to 150°C/302°F, then 10 minutes to 250°C/482°F and then 10 minutes to 300°C/572°F. Then I bake the pizza for 8 minutes.
Tomorrow I could post pictures of the oven. It has capacity for 4 16'' pizzas, all located on the same cement refractary floor, it doesn't have any racks. I place the pizza on a pizza screen, place it on the stone, and thats it. I'll upload the flour and oven info tomorrow. Thanks again!


Offline vtsteve

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2015, 12:32:17 AM »
Steve,

Since Daniel (dantinap) indicated at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=34902.msg347192#msg347192 that he was planning a business venture with his pizza making, I stayed away from methods like stretch and fold.

Ahh... I saw that he was hand mixing, so S+F seemed like a natural extension of his process. I stand by the increased salt, though.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2015, 10:13:40 AM »
Ahh... I saw that he was hand mixing, so S+F seemed like a natural extension of his process. I stand by the increased salt, though.
Steve,

Those are both good points.

In Reply 52 (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg66312#msg66312) referenced earlier in this thread, I discussed hand kneading as a way of making the dough (an emergency dough) using sifted flour, a whisk and a spoon, and finally a round of hand kneading. That was perhaps the equivalent of stretch and fold. Eventually, of course, Daniel will want to go to the use of a commercial mixer should he decide to go professional.

As for the salt, I eventually increased the amount of salt to 1.9% when I discovered that the dough ball weight for a 14" PJ pizza was about 20 ounces, rather than the 21-22 ounce dough balls I had been using, and after I redid my analysis using the Papa John's nutrition information for its basic breadsticks rather than a basic cheese or pepperoni pizza. As a result, the calculations derived from the breadsticks nutrition information were more accurate even though I suspect most people wouldn't notice a big difference between the two types of formulations. You can see the revised numbers, including the 1.9% salt, in the context of a 2-3 day cold fermented dough, at Reply 585 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg273667#msg273667. That is the dough formulation that Daniel might want to try, as modified for his desired dough ball weight, if he wants to go for a 2-3 day cold fermented dough as he earlier mentioned as a possibility. To your point, the effect of the increased salt level will be to make for a slightly stronger gluten matrix while, at the same time, be muted somewhat flavor-wise by the increased amount of sugar in the formulation (from the 4% range for sugar and 5% for honey I used previously, to 5.89% sugar).

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2015, 12:53:05 PM »
Actually, high absorption and low protein content as well as unknown protein quality are all ear marks of Mexican flour. The high level of damaged starch is what gives the flour its unusually high absorption properties. Then, as the dough ferments over the next two hours as stated, it becomes soft and probably rather sticky as a result of the enzymes in the yeast breaking down a portion of the damaged starch, as a result, the hydrolized starch releases the water it was holding and we have a soft dough that can be very difficult to work with. The things that I would do to help improve the situation are as follows:
1) If you can source some vital wheat gluten, add it to your flour at a level of at least 5% of the flour weight, this will result in about a 3% increase in protein content. Be sure to add 1.5-times the weight of gluten added as additional water. Add the dry gluten to the flour and stir in for just a couple of seconds.
2) No need to sift the flour.
3) Reduce the oil level in your formula to around 2%, this will help to reduce the tenderizing effect of the oil on the dough.
4) Put 80F water in the mixing bowl, add salt and sugar (no need to stir) add the flour and begin to mix, as the dough begins to form, add the oil gradually. As soon as the dough is formed and kneaded, divide into desired weight pieces and form each piece into a ball, wipe each dough ball with a little oil and place into a plastic bag, or place it onto a lightly floured surface (counter top) and cover with a piece of plastic to prevent drying. Allow the dough balls to proof/ferment for no more than 1-hour, then immediately begin opening the dough into pizza skins, dress and bake. This is the only way that I know of to get around the high starch damage issue.
Note:
You're kinda stuck using the high absorption, if you don't the dough will be too dry to do anything with.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #12 on: February 11, 2015, 03:20:19 PM »
Thanks for the help. Im gonna try the tips Tom said:
-No more sifting to the flour
-Vital wheat gluten, I've been searching without success in the biggest supermarkets in my city, even at Walmart  :P. There is no trace of it unfortunately. I might be able to get a 12% protein flour though, seems that you can buy it from a local industrial company.
-I'll try to reduce oil percentage, if increasing the kneading time fails to make the dough stronger.

Does High absorption mean that, if you use the same water percentage in both a high and a low absorption flour, the high absorption will feel wetter? If so, what happens to the water in the low absorption flour? ???

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #13 on: February 11, 2015, 06:08:41 PM »
Daniel,

I was planning to offer up my own suggestions once you provided the details on the ingredients used to make the San Blas flour, even though I had discussed that flour previously at the PJ clone thread at Reply 784 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=6758.msg348564#msg348564. I have assumed all along that you might not be able to get vital wheat gluten in Mexico, just as I did not see it in any of the supermarkets I visited in Mexico, where I typically looked at all of the pizza related ingredients I could find in the markets. In my case, I would just bring VWG and any other useful ingredients with me on my trips to Mexico.

What I was going to suggest was that you lower the amount of water and/or oil to a combined value of no more than 60%, on the assumption that the San Blas flour is not one with excessive starch damage. You could even use the dough formulation I referenced in my last post since you mentioned that you were considering a two- or three-day cold fermentation. I would also bake the pizzas directly on the stone surface of the oven, not using a screen as you did since the pizza won't start to bake until the screen gets up to the proper temperature and, as a result, you can end up with limited oven spring. Of course, the dressed skins will have to be dry enough to be loaded into the oven without sticking to the peel even when flour or cornmeal (or masa flour) or semolina or a flour blend is used on the peel. I would bake the pizzas at a rather high oven temperature but not so long that the crust dries out excessively. If needed, you could use the screen under the baking pizza toward the end of the bake if you need more top heat to develop more top crust coloration. Since each oven has its own characteristics and since your flour may not be the most ideal for what you want to do, you may have to play around with both your oven and your formulation to see if you can achieve the results you are after. With the right feedback maybe we can help you with such modifications.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #14 on: February 11, 2015, 06:28:07 PM »
Pete here is the flour info.

For every 100 grams of San Blás:
Energetic content:  -----1431 kJ (337 kcal)
Protein-------------------11 grams
Carbs--------------------71 grams
-Sugars------------------1 gram
Dietetic Fiber-------------0.05 gram
Fat-----------------------1 gram
-Saturated Fat-----------0,5 gram
Sodium------------------75 mg
Vitamin B1 (Tiamin)-----0.5 mg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)--0.3 mg
Vitamin B3 (Niacin)------3.5 mg
Folic Acid----------------0.2 mg
Iron----------------------4.0 mg
Zinc.---------------------4.0 mg

It says it contains benzol peroxide,  ascorbic L acid, and enzymes.

The oven pics are attached. I just place the pizza on a screen, and let it sit on the front section of the oven.

I finally found a flour that has 12% protein, it is even called Theseus: extra strong  :D. I will try various recipes with it before modifying the factors you, Steve and Tom mentioned.
Here are the specifications of this Theseus flour:

For every 100 grams of Theseus:

Energetic content:  -----1414 kJ (333 kcal)
Protein-------------------12 grams
Carbs--------------------69 grams
-Sugars------------------1 gram
Dietetic Fiber-------------0.05 gram
Fat-----------------------1 gram
-Saturated Fat-----------0.14 grams
Sodium------------------2 mg
Vitamin B1 (Tiamin)-----0.62 mg
Vitamin B2 (Riboflavin)--0.42 mg
Vitamin B3 (Niacin)------5.5 mg
Folic Acid----------------0.2 mg
Iron----------------------5.5 mg
Zinc.---------------------4.0 mg


It says it contains benzol peroxide,  ascorbic L acid, and enzymes. Also contains azidocarbonamida (in spanish).
Will this Theseus make a notable difference? The difference is in sodium and 1 more gram of protein.



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #15 on: February 11, 2015, 07:34:40 PM »
Daniel,

Thank you for the information on the flours. I am not familiar with the Theseus flour but there are some interesting nutrients values in the two flours for which you provided information. Generally speaking, the Protein, Carbs, Sugars, Fat, Sat Fat and vitamins look quite normal but the Carbs are a bit on the low side (unless Carbs means Other Carbs) and the Dietary Fiber in the two flours is very low compared with white U.S. flours, which typically contain about 1.5-3.2 grams for a 100-gram flour sample. Also, the Sodium level in the San Blas flour, at 75mg, is much higher than in white U.S. flours, which typically is around 1-2mg for a 100-gram flour sample. The Theseus Sodium nutrient, at 2mg, is what I am used to seeing in white U.S. flours. 75mg Sodium in the San Blas flour is not a lot of sodium (it is a bit less than 1/50th of a teaspoon of salt on an equivalency basis) but I have never seen a flour with such a high Sodium content. I suspect that the two flours have had most of the dietary fiber milled out of them.

As for the ingredients themselves, the benzyol peroxide is a bleaching agent, and the azodicarbonide is a substitute for bromates as are used in some baked goods and a few flours in the U.S. The ascorbic acid acts as an oxidizing agent (by virtue of acting with atmospheric oxygen), which makes it easier to form the gluten network (by preventing the gluten bonds from breaking down) during kneading of the dough. Ascorbic acid is also a substitute for potassium bromate. The enzymes are most likely fungal, bacterial or cereal amylase enzymes. These are the enzymes that work on the damaged starch in the flour to produce sugars to feed the yeast and produce ethyl alcohol and carbon dioxide. The residual sugars after feeding the yeast contribute crust coloration during the bake.

I will be interested in what you learn from using the Theseus flour.

Peter

Offline dantinap

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Re: Gluten question
« Reply #16 on: February 17, 2015, 11:12:52 AM »
What's up, guys, reporting results from this journey of myself to understand a little more about gluten and it's strength factors. I'm trying to make American style pizza, similar to Pete's Papa John Clone. In my previous experiments, I was aiming for a 3 day fermentation, to guarantee the flavors and aromas from long-cold fermentation. Experiments where not being productive, because the mistakes I made while learning, and my little understanding of the whole complex pizza making process, made the learning process harder to manage than in a daily basis of experimenting. :D So I decided I would start making same day doughs, with 2 hours of ambient room fermentation, and picking up the results and knowledge on the same day, and when I understood more, I would plan a longer fermentation.

Well, I'm giving more attention to these 4 factors in my dream's pizza now: Strength, Flavor, Moisture, Airness.  ::)
Strength: this is the one I'm about to tackle, on the same day dough.
Flavor: I understand that the best way to tackle this one is by the use of a long fermentation, pre- ferments, or additives in the mixing ingredients (like more or less sugar, salt, honey or herbs) or adding additives before baking (like butter, infused oil, etc). I plan to tacke Flavor after getting the same day Strength, Moisture and Airness I want.
Moisture: I'm looking for a pizza crust that doesn't make you thirsty, although the sauce, cheese and ingredient's moisture will help on this, but I would like the crust to be the least dry possible. I want it to release a bit of moisture when you bite it.
Airness: I would like the crust to be spongy and not that dense.

Going back to my almost solved Strength issue:
I tried the new 12 % protein, and got a dough that got tighter in the mixing and kneading process When hand kneading, it felt less sticky to the touch, and was easier to hand knead. I used too much yeast, because the dough got too big in the 2 hours fermenting, it went from a shaped ball of (Base: 8.5 cm/ Height: 5.3 cm) to a fermented ball of (Base: 15 cm/ Height: 5.75 cm)  :-D. It had a lot of gases, and when I touched it, it deflated, and left the top skin of the dough very wrinkled; this gave me a hard time when shaping the dough, because the wrinkled skin surface started to form folds on itself, when using my fingers to shape. Another thing that led me to think that I had used too much yeast, was the fact that I docked the shaped dough 3 times, and still got a big bubble in the oven.

These are the baker's I'm using:

Flour:-------------100%
Water:------------58.36 %
Oil:----------------6.1 %
Yeast:-------------0.56%
Sugar:------------5.91 %
Salt:--------------1.75 %

I'm reducing the yeast to 0.35%. I hope these eliminates the wrinkles the skin got from containing too much gas,  and the big bubble that formed during baking.

One question regarding to Strength: I'm reading the  "Pizza Bible", and Tony the author mentions something about autolyse, his words:

"THE AUTOLYSE METHOD To give breads and pizzas a better crumb and stronger structure, some bakers like to “presoak” their flour in water (for 30 minutes, or even up to 6 to 8 hours to maximize absorption), a technique known as the autolyse method. This gives the flour a headstart on hydrating before you add the other ingredients. The enzymes in the flour begin to break down its starches and proteins, which helps gluten develop."

By gluten develop, I guess he means that the dough becomes more extensible, rather than elastic right?


Pic1: Dough while mixing, with the yeast added at last.
Pic2: Dough scars, when tight shaping the ball
Pic3: Dough ball before fermenting
Pic4: Dough ball after fermenting.
Pic5: Dough deflated, after fermentingm with wrinkles
Pic6: Folds formed on dough skin during the shaping  :-\
Pic7: Massive bubble
Pic8: Airness and thickness. Airness was ok but not the one I wish =)-
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 11:24:06 AM by dantinap »


 

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