Author Topic: Deep dish using natural starter  (Read 2008 times)

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Offline dellavecchia

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Deep dish using natural starter
« on: February 03, 2013, 04:38:06 PM »
I had some fun today making DD (which I have little experience) using a starter instead of commercial yeast. I do know that for DD you are not looking for a great amount of fermentation or gluten development due to the biscuit-like texture of the crust - so large amounts of starter is probably not the best match. But I refresh my starters every weekend and I needed something to make so it does not go to waste.

The flavor of the crust was noticeably different from past attempts - having similarities to my NP doughs. Very interesting and pleasantly complimentary to the rest of the ingredients.

I did not put pecorino on top because the sausage and Vermont Cure pepperoni were salty enough. I am new at this, so any comments or suggestions appreciated.

100% AP Flour
58% water
20% Starter
15% corn oil
1% salt

8 hours at room temp - the dough nearly doubled.

John


Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 05:53:16 PM »
If I was going to eat deep dish, that is the one I'd want to eat!
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 06:33:06 PM »
John,

Very nice. What you did reminded me of a similar experiment that I conducted for a Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza using natural leavening and Caputo 00 flour.  It is discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625.

Peter

Offline deb415611

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 06:35:54 PM »
Very nice John!!
Deb

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 06:57:56 PM »
Thank you Deb and Craig.

Peter - that is a great post. We both chose 20% starter. Why did you choose 20% oil - I went back and forth on choosing a lower oil percentage than most of the recipes I was researching. I thought the high oil would severely inhibit the natural yeast. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of upping the oil next time.

John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:00:24 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline David Deas

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 07:08:30 PM »
Nice job.  It's always fun to see guys take a stab at other pizza styles maybe a little less familiar to them.  I enjoy that.

I've tried sourdough with a Chicago DD (stuffed crust variety) as well and the crust is just so buried beneath the mountain of meat and cheese that it didn't make much of a difference in terms of flavor until I ate my way near the pizza bones (at which point you usually have the big yeasty flavor).  It looks like your proportions are more conducive to highlighting a flavorful crust in every bite.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:10:47 PM by David Deas »

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 07:15:29 PM »
Thank you David. I did make a concerted effort to keep the proportions balanced - plus I can't take too much heaviness. The taste of the crust was enough of a difference that I doubt I will ever use commercial yeast for DD again.

John

Offline norma427

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »
John,

That deep dish looks delicious!

Norma

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 07:57:32 PM »
Looks great John, nice experiment. I wonder if a different oil might give you even more of your NP dough flavor?
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Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 06:55:28 AM »
Thank you Norma and Bob.

Bob, I have found that olive oil is a bit too overpowering in flavor when used here. I much prefer corn or canola oil.

John

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 09:34:47 AM »
Peter - that is a great post. We both chose 20% starter. Why did you choose 20% oil - I went back and forth on choosing a lower oil percentage than most of the recipes I was researching. I thought the high oil would severely inhibit the natural yeast. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of upping the oil next time.
John,

As you may know from your research, the possible range of oil (fat) for a Chicago-style deep-dish pizza dough is quite wide. It can be from about 8% to 30%, and even lower than 8% if you go back into the 1970s when Giordano's used about 6% total fat (a combination of margarine and oil). So, I essentially took a number in the middle of the range. For the leavening, I went with 20% because I felt I needed enough to overcome the potential inhibiting effects of the large amount of oil. For other doughs I would normally have used something like 15% starter. That is a number that member bakerboy (Barry), a breadmaker, suggested several years ago. Also, I had previously experimented with a version of a Giordano's clone dough that member buzz had come up with and in which I used a natural preferment, 10% canola/olive oil blend, and some butter. The oil blend and the butter combined had a fat content of a little over 18%. You can see the formulation for that pizza at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.msg14755.html#msg14755. No doubt I was influenced by the hydration value I used for that pizza since that is the value I used for the Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza. But for that pizza, I was mainly looking for a fusion of a naturally leavened Neapolitan style using 00 flour and San Marzano tomatoes (and ideally Italian type toppings) and the Chicago deep-dish style with a lot of oil.

I don't know if you noticed but Matt (Matthew) came up with his own version of a Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza but where he used IDY instead of a natural leavening and where he also used some cream of tartar (which is what Gino's East uses/used). He discussed his results in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg84070.html#msg84070.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 10:13:43 AM »
Peter - Thanks for the reply. My original idea was to use less starter because I did not want the dough to expand too much. It is obvious from all of the other DD recipes I have seen that significant expansion/fermentation would detract from the desired texture.

When making panettone using natural leavening, the high fat and sugar environment requires you to get the starter to a hyper active state before being used. You feed it 3-4 times a day for two days straight, to the point where the starter is tripling within a few hours. I obviously don't want to do that just to make DD, so some sort of balance needs to be found. The difference in taste was noticeable enough that 20% starter seems to be a good reference point for 8 hours at 68 degrees. I might try upping the oil and seeing how the starter responds, and then make a determination afterwards to see if the increased oil is what I want in the final product.

But that may be a while from now, because I can only tolerate these giant casseroles once a month or so!

John

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 10:15:57 AM »
One other note. I used Sclafani (NJ) crushed tomatoes here. I thought they were too thick and not chunky enough. I think some other product might be a better choice.

John

Online mrmojo1

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Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 11:04:34 PM »
oh wow! you DD looks awesome!!!  great job!!  your sauce also looks great to me!  im not a fan of chunks!!  thanks for the pics and posts!!
"My Doctor says I swallow a lot of aggression.  Along with a lot of pizzas!!"