Author Topic: Deep dish using natural starter  (Read 1333 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Deep dish using natural starter
« on: February 03, 2013, 04:38:06 PM »
I had some fun today making DD (which I have little experience) using a starter instead of commercial yeast. I do know that for DD you are not looking for a great amount of fermentation or gluten development due to the biscuit-like texture of the crust - so large amounts of starter is probably not the best match. But I refresh my starters every weekend and I needed something to make so it does not go to waste.

The flavor of the crust was noticeably different from past attempts - having similarities to my NP doughs. Very interesting and pleasantly complimentary to the rest of the ingredients.

I did not put pecorino on top because the sausage and Vermont Cure pepperoni were salty enough. I am new at this, so any comments or suggestions appreciated.

100% AP Flour
58% water
20% Starter
15% corn oil
1% salt

8 hours at room temp - the dough nearly doubled.

John


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12833
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2013, 05:53:16 PM »
If I was going to eat deep dish, that is the one I'd want to eat!
Pizza is not bread.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22144
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2013, 06:33:06 PM »
John,

Very nice. What you did reminded me of a similar experiment that I conducted for a Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza using natural leavening and Caputo 00 flour.  It is discussed at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625.

Peter

Offline deb415611

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1021
  • Location: CT
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2013, 06:35:54 PM »
Very nice John!!

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2013, 06:57:56 PM »
Thank you Deb and Craig.

Peter - that is a great post. We both chose 20% starter. Why did you choose 20% oil - I went back and forth on choosing a lower oil percentage than most of the recipes I was researching. I thought the high oil would severely inhibit the natural yeast. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of upping the oil next time.

John
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:00:24 PM by dellavecchia »

Offline David Deas

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 346
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2013, 07:08:30 PM »
Nice job.  It's always fun to see guys take a stab at other pizza styles maybe a little less familiar to them.  I enjoy that.

I've tried sourdough with a Chicago DD (stuffed crust variety) as well and the crust is just so buried beneath the mountain of meat and cheese that it didn't make much of a difference in terms of flavor until I ate my way near the pizza bones (at which point you usually have the big yeasty flavor).  It looks like your proportions are more conducive to highlighting a flavorful crust in every bite.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2013, 07:10:47 PM by David Deas »

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2013, 07:15:29 PM »
Thank you David. I did make a concerted effort to keep the proportions balanced - plus I can't take too much heaviness. The taste of the crust was enough of a difference that I doubt I will ever use commercial yeast for DD again.

John

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22185
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2013, 07:52:33 PM »
John,

That deep dish looks delicious!

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10868
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2013, 07:57:32 PM »
Looks great John, nice experiment. I wonder if a different oil might give you even more of your NP dough flavor?
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2013, 06:55:28 AM »
Thank you Norma and Bob.

Bob, I have found that olive oil is a bit too overpowering in flavor when used here. I much prefer corn or canola oil.

John


Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22144
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #10 on: February 04, 2013, 09:34:47 AM »
Peter - that is a great post. We both chose 20% starter. Why did you choose 20% oil - I went back and forth on choosing a lower oil percentage than most of the recipes I was researching. I thought the high oil would severely inhibit the natural yeast. Any thoughts on this? I was thinking of upping the oil next time.
John,

As you may know from your research, the possible range of oil (fat) for a Chicago-style deep-dish pizza dough is quite wide. It can be from about 8% to 30%, and even lower than 8% if you go back into the 1970s when Giordano's used about 6% total fat (a combination of margarine and oil). So, I essentially took a number in the middle of the range. For the leavening, I went with 20% because I felt I needed enough to overcome the potential inhibiting effects of the large amount of oil. For other doughs I would normally have used something like 15% starter. That is a number that member bakerboy (Barry), a breadmaker, suggested several years ago. Also, I had previously experimented with a version of a Giordano's clone dough that member buzz had come up with and in which I used a natural preferment, 10% canola/olive oil blend, and some butter. The oil blend and the butter combined had a fat content of a little over 18%. You can see the formulation for that pizza at Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.msg14755.html#msg14755. No doubt I was influenced by the hydration value I used for that pizza since that is the value I used for the Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza. But for that pizza, I was mainly looking for a fusion of a naturally leavened Neapolitan style using 00 flour and San Marzano tomatoes (and ideally Italian type toppings) and the Chicago deep-dish style with a lot of oil.

I don't know if you noticed but Matt (Matthew) came up with his own version of a Neapolitan-inspired deep-dish pizza but where he used IDY instead of a natural leavening and where he also used some cream of tartar (which is what Gino's East uses/used). He discussed his results in Reply 16 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg84070.html#msg84070.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2013, 10:13:43 AM »
Peter - Thanks for the reply. My original idea was to use less starter because I did not want the dough to expand too much. It is obvious from all of the other DD recipes I have seen that significant expansion/fermentation would detract from the desired texture.

When making panettone using natural leavening, the high fat and sugar environment requires you to get the starter to a hyper active state before being used. You feed it 3-4 times a day for two days straight, to the point where the starter is tripling within a few hours. I obviously don't want to do that just to make DD, so some sort of balance needs to be found. The difference in taste was noticeable enough that 20% starter seems to be a good reference point for 8 hours at 68 degrees. I might try upping the oil and seeing how the starter responds, and then make a determination afterwards to see if the increased oil is what I want in the final product.

But that may be a while from now, because I can only tolerate these giant casseroles once a month or so!

John

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2013, 10:15:57 AM »
One other note. I used Sclafani (NJ) crushed tomatoes here. I thought they were too thick and not chunky enough. I think some other product might be a better choice.

John

Offline mrmojo1

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 350
  • pizza sans frontières
Re: Deep dish using natural starter
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2013, 11:04:34 PM »
oh wow! you DD looks awesome!!!  great job!!  your sauce also looks great to me!  im not a fan of chunks!!  thanks for the pics and posts!!


 

pizzapan