Author Topic: Premium ingredient trading  (Read 7931 times)

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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #50 on: February 07, 2013, 10:49:04 AM »
sourdough starters should be free or at least nearly free.... lets face it selling a 1/2 ounce of flour for 20 bucks.... 

The raw material cost has no relevence.
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #51 on: February 07, 2013, 10:57:56 AM »
Ok, I have found some studies on the populations and changes in sourdough cultures and they are remarkably stable under certain conditions.  The primary factor influencing the stability of the ratio of the yeast and bacteria is the environment.  Keep it close to the original and it is self-policing re: local wild organisms.  Since the culture is pretty much conducted under the same conditions everywhere this is not usually an issue.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #52 on: February 07, 2013, 11:27:06 AM »
To me, Morals=personal, ethics=business.  They are equivalent terms for different spheres of behavior.

I think the distinction is a little more fundamental. In the simplest terms, morality is about principles that guide good choices. Ethics is about reasoning that guide good choices.

There is a philosophical puzzle that asks if you would divert a train with failing brakes that would otherwise kill 5 people stuck on the track to a different track knowing that doing so would only kill one person who happened to be on the other track? Most people would. However, what if there was no alternate track but you could stop the train from hitting the 5 people by using your car to push the car (and the driver) in front of you into the path of the train knowing that man would certainly die but the five would live. Would you do that? If not, why? Aren't both the same - sacrificing one to save five? What if the guy in the car ahead of you was your brother? What if you knew he was a single father with 7 kids? What if you knew the guy in the car in front of you was a terrorist responsible for sabotaging the brakes on the train that was about to kill the five people?

If you only have morals to work with, you would have to apply them consistently. You must always sacrifice one to save five. Period. It is ethics that allows you to make reasoned choices, to override your moral principles when the situation demands.



 
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Bill/SFNM

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #53 on: February 07, 2013, 11:46:53 AM »

There is a philosophical puzzle that asks if you would divert a train with failing brakes that would otherwise kill 5 people stuck on the track to a different track knowing that doing so would only kill one person who happened to be on the other track? Most people would.
 

Check out this great podcast:

http://www.radiolab.org/2007/aug/13/


scott123

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #54 on: February 07, 2013, 01:45:03 PM »
Strictly business wise, if it was legal, then yes even if it was unethical as long as it was legal. With regards to buisness, I'm trying to make money not freinds. I would also expect my oppenets to try and do the same to me. Outside of buisness or my livelihood, I defintly would not do anything unethical.

Synonyms for unethical:
Definition:    dishonest, immoral
Synonyms:    cheating, corrupt, crooked, dirty*, dirty-dealing, dishonorable, disreputable, double-crossing, fake, fishy, flimflam, fly-by-night, illegal, improper, mercenary, scam*, shady*, sharp*, slick*, slippery*, sneaky*, two-faced, two-timing, underhand, unfair, unprincipled, unprofessional, unscrupulous, wrong

Antonyms for ethical:
bad, black, dishonest, dishonorable, evil, evil-minded, immoral, indecent, sinful, unethical, unrighteous, wicked, wrong

'Unethical' has a dispassionate clinical ring to it that could make one assume it isn't all that pejorative, but in actuality, if you're being unethical, you're treating someone else improperly. I think it's important to understand the true meaning of the word and not hide behind it's least pejorative synonym.  I'm not saying you're doing this, I just want to make sure that you're aware that being unethical is the same thing as being immoral, being dishonorable, being indecent. You may very well be saying, I'm going to cheat my competitors, because I expect them to cheat me. If that's the case, then we're on the same page in regards to the meaning of the word 'unethical,' but let's call a spade a spade, and not play any word connotation games.

Governments attempt to take the common morality of a society and codify it into laws, and, most of the time they succeed, but not all the time.  You can be a truly rotten person and yet still be law abiding. Look at the subprime lenders who's actions contributed to the 2008 financial crisis.  They did nothing illegal, but their immoral actions plunged America into one of our worst economic times ever.  People starved to death because of their lack of ethics. By only abiding by the law, you can still do a tremendous amount of damage to your fellow man.

Jesus said "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." He didn't say "Do unto everyone but your business competitors" :) Every major world religion has some form of the golden rule.  Even if you're an atheist, there's still valid reasons to be honorable in your dealings with your competitors.  First, we live in the information age. Even if you don't believe that a higher power is watching you, you had better believe that other people are.  Secrets don't stay secrets for long.  Bill alluded to how important your reputation is.  If your customers, your superiors, your trade partners or your vendors catch wind of your dishonorable actions, it will hurt your bottom line. Second, God or no God, we all have an innate desire to be good people. We all judge ourselves. When we're not honest, when we cheat to achieve our goals, it's damaging to our self esteem. Study after study has proven that people are happier when they're giving to others.  Legally stealing from others, even our competitors, has the opposite effect.

No-one is telling you not to be competitive or to be weak. Ethics are part of our strength.  They create the playing field that allows us to be greater, to rise higher. Evolutionary biology reveals the older reptilian part of our brain that has no morals, that's incapable of trust, that only acts through self preservation, but biology also reveals the newer mammalian section of our brain- a section that understands the life enriching aspects of morality, of shared goals, of being nurturing, of having empathy. If you watch any reality TV, you're fully aware of how frequently people turn to the reptilian section of their brain to make decisions, but, at the same time, with each new generation, we are shedding more and more of our reptilian skin.

No one here is pointing a finger at you.  I think we all struggle with ethical decisions, and, at some point, we all have acted dishonorably. Members have expressed sadness with your post because they perceive your dog eat dog outlook as leading to a less fulfilling, less happy life- and we all want you to be happy.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:48:10 PM by scott123 »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #55 on: February 07, 2013, 03:11:49 PM »
Scott, pretty well said. At the beginning however, it sounds like you're saying it is OK to be unethical with someone who is unethical towards you to which I would strongly disagree.

Matthew 7:12 really says all that needs to be said.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

scott123

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #56 on: February 07, 2013, 03:35:48 PM »
Scott, pretty well said. At the beginning however, it sounds like you're saying it is OK to be unethical with someone who is unethical towards you to which I would strongly disagree.

I could have conveyed myself better, but the first section relates strictly to the meaning of the word 'unethical' and making sure that Trevor and I are on the same page in relation to how he's using it, not that I agree with him. I'm attempting to confront the potential misconception that unethical isn't as bad as immoral or dishonorable- or any of the other synonyms.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:55:41 PM by scott123 »

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #57 on: February 07, 2013, 03:36:35 PM »
I could have conveyed myself better, but the first section relates strictly to the meaning of the word 'unethical' and making sure that Trevor and I are on the same page in relation to how he's using it, not that I agree with him.

Got it. In that case, very well said.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #58 on: February 07, 2013, 03:48:13 PM »
This seems no different than using or distributing copyrighted material without paying the owner of the copyright.

Easy to do, easy to rationalize, but still results in the theft of  something that does not belong to you.

Perry
2:7 (13)

« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 03:49:57 PM by pizzaboyfan »


Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #59 on: February 07, 2013, 04:04:47 PM »
I personaly feel its different then copyrighted material because its a living organism. To me its like selling someone 2 dogs and then telling them that they can't sell the puppies those 2 dogs have. Maybe I shouldn't have used unethical and I was too genral. In the context of this tread I don't think buying Eds culture and reselling it is unethical, as long as its legal. To me unethical is what Bernie Maidoff did, or if Joe Pa knew what Sandusky was doing and turned the other cheek. I look at buisness like a sport, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to win within the rules no matter how it affects my opponents. At the same time, I'm going to do everything I can for my team mates. Also, i have never, and probally will never, work for/ run a coperation or anything like that. If i did, thats how i would approach it. Please don't be sad over what one persons hypathetical corporate buisness ideas on how to conduct buisness are. Save the sarrow for all the tragic things that happen in real life everyday. We can make, or learn how to make, any type of pizza we want to today, share it with our loved ones, have sex and drink beer. Life is good.

Offline pizzaboyfan

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #60 on: February 07, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »
We purchased two male Siberian cats on different occasions.
These cats are pure bred, and have  specific DNA characteristics that are unique to the breed.
The breeders of these animals follow strict guidelines to preserve the genetic heritage.
Part of the purchase agreement was that we would have the cats neutered and we agreed not allow them to breed.


scott123

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #61 on: February 07, 2013, 05:05:35 PM »
I look at buisness like a sport, I'm going to do whatever I need to do to win within the rules no matter how it affects my opponents.

What I'm trying to say is that the 'rules' of business are ethics, not laws.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #62 on: February 07, 2013, 05:14:50 PM »
Iíve yet to meet the person who is only unethical in one part of his life. Trust is a fragile thing. Customers see how you operate. So do your teammates.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage

Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #63 on: February 07, 2013, 05:28:25 PM »
Your exactly right and that's why I could pick up my phone and call anyone of my former teammates for help. They will do anything they can to help me, and vice versa. They're all 'ride or die' with me. I have amazing relationships with a lot of people.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2013, 05:56:21 PM »
I think the distinction is a little more fundamental. In the simplest terms, morality is about principles that guide good choices. Ethics is about reasoning that guide good choices.

There is a philosophical puzzle that asks if you would divert a train with failing brakes that would otherwise kill 5 people stuck on the track to a different track knowing that doing so would only kill one person who happened to be on the other track? Most people would. However, what if there was no alternate track but you could stop the train from hitting the 5 people by using your car to push the car (and the driver) in front of you into the path of the train knowing that man would certainly die but the five would live. Would you do that? If not, why? Aren't both the same - sacrificing one to save five? What if the guy in the car ahead of you was your brother? What if you knew he was a single father with 7 kids? What if you knew the guy in the car in front of you was a terrorist responsible for sabotaging the brakes on the train that was about to kill the five people?

If you only have morals to work with, you would have to apply them consistently. You must always sacrifice one to save five. Period. It is ethics that allows you to make reasoned choices, to override your moral principles when the situation demands.



 
In this scenario, what would the word be to describe someone who feels they can't do anything? Whether it's their brother or the terrorist in the car ahead....one just doesn't want to manipulate such dangerous life bearing decisions, feels it is in the hands of their higher power...I know this is "faith". But in the context of morals/ethics, I'm just wondering where this fits.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2013, 06:06:59 PM »
I can pick up the phone and call my competitors and they will help.  That is the difference.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2013, 06:15:35 PM »
In this scenario, what would the word be to describe someone who feels they can't do anything? Whether it's their brother or the terrorist in the car ahead....one just doesn't want to manipulate such dangerous life bearing decisions, feels it is in the hands of their higher power...I know this is "faith". But in the context of morals/ethics, I'm just wondering where this fits.

IMO, such a person is probably trying to hide their inability to make a decision and/or act on it. Faith does not require you to sit by watch things happen.
"We make great pizza, with sourdough when we can, commercial yeast when we must, but always great pizza."
Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2013, 06:16:13 PM »
I can pick up the phone and call my competitors and they will help.  That is the difference.
+1...and that my friend is a thing of beauty Tom.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2013, 06:22:47 PM »
IMO, such a person is probably trying to hide their inability to make a decision and/or act on it. Faith does not require you to sit by watch things happen.
Well, if I knew the terrorist was in the car ahead of me I would not hesitate(and don't care if somebody don't like that)....but I'm not giving my brother up for no one. I hope that doesn't make me a bad person...if it does then that's tuff. :)
Thanks for answering my question, I knew you would have a good answer and I was just curious.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline Tdavis

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2013, 07:17:17 PM »
 I can call other people that do the same line of work as I do and they will help and have helped me. I was responding to someone saying that if I acted, what they consider unethical in sports, that my teammates would see that. Which they did see how I acted, they know me inside and out, and they love me for life. Again, my  "unethical" thoughts were on a hypethical situation that I've never been in. It's silly to make assumptions about someone off of a couple paragraphs they wrote in response to a hypothetical situation.

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #70 on: February 08, 2013, 05:55:20 AM »
The reason the US is becoming so over regulated is because of people who don't use ethics to make decisions. Because of these types of people, the government steps in and makes bad ethical decisions illegal.

For example, I work in the car business as a finance manager. It used to be when someone purchased a car, the dealership could write a contract at any APR and then make the difference between the bank's APR and customer's APR. So say you get a very sweet old lady with perfect credit and bank buys the loan at 1.9% but you convince her the best she qualifies for is 19.9%. Now you make 18% interest on the deal. Is it ethical to do that to a customer? Nope. Yet many dealers were doing that to people, and that is why the car business got such a bad wrap. This was plain out unethical behavior. Now guess what has happened since? The legal limit on deals is now a 2.5% difference between bank rate and customer rate. The government had to step in and make laws to protect consumers because apparently we as humans can't be trusted to decent. I am all for a fair profit, I am just not for stealing because there is now law in place yet that doesn't say I can't.

Offline henkverhaar

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #71 on: February 08, 2013, 09:00:25 AM »
Just found another outfit offering Ischia and Camaldoli starters:

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/camaldoli-italian-sourdough-starter.html

FWIW...

Offline JD

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Re: Premium ingredient trading
« Reply #72 on: February 08, 2013, 09:17:43 AM »
Just found another outfit offering Ischia and Camaldoli starters:

http://www.culturesforhealth.com/camaldoli-italian-sourdough-starter.html

FWIW...


This is who I purchased my Ischia from, except it was offered on Amazon (but no longer is). I guess they are still selling afterall.


 

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