Author Topic: Dough won't stay stretched.  (Read 2635 times)

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Offline Dntdave

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Dough won't stay stretched.
« on: February 06, 2013, 08:38:32 PM »
Hi sir,
Was wondering if you could held me with a problem we can't seem to fix. We use a doughpro press with heat that is supposed to press out a perfect shell every time. The problem we have is that we press it and it presses out to perfect size, then immediately starts shrinking. We have tried several heat settings on the doughpro as well as tried to change the amount of water we use in our dough. We use a commercial Hobart 60qt mixer and normally mix the dough for 10 minutes. Here is our dough recipe.

49lbs high gluten flour
1 cup granulated salt
7 cups olive oil
3 1/2 cups honey
6 ounces yeast
3 gallons water.

Any help you could offer would be greatly appreciated.
Thank you,
Dave


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #1 on: February 06, 2013, 09:04:31 PM »
Dave,

It might help Tom address your problem, if he sees your post, if you give him the type of information as covered in his PMQ Think Tank posts at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=8594&p=57857&hilit=#p57857 and at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=6868&hilit=#p45421. Back in 2002, Tom also wrote an article for PMQ on dough forming equipment, including dough presses, at http://web.archive.org/web/20100626072731/http://www.pmq.com/mag/2002summer/doughformer.shtml. He later (in 2007) penned an article on dough presses at http://web.archive.org/web/20080121222757/http://www.pmq.com/mag/200705/article.php?story=lehmann.

Peter

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2013, 09:34:58 AM »
Dave;
I'm very familiar with the problem that you are having. Pressed pizza doughs require a VERY relaxed dough in order to press out without the dough snapping back excessively. Our normal approach is to add a reducing agent to the dough to weaken it, thus reducing the snap back. Reducing agents that are commonly used are L-cysteine at 20 to 60 parts per million (based on total flour weight), PZ-44 <www.foremostfarmsusa.com> which is a blend of dairy whey and L-cysteine, and because it is diluted into the whey the use level is typically given at 1 to 2% of the total flour weight, and then there is "dead yeast" this is a commercial product made up of dead yeast which contains the amino acid glutathione, a substance very similar to L-cysteine. Many yeast manufacturers offer this product. The normal use level is about 2% of the total flour weight. While sulfites and protease enzymes can also be used as reducing agents we don't normally recommend their use in this application. The sulfites also impact yeast activity by slowing it down and the enzyme approach can't be turned off, so the dough just keeps getting softer and softer until it is finally baked. Other options that could be explored are the use of milk to replace the water. Do not scald the milk prior to use. The unscalded milk contains specific proteins which can also impact the dough by making it softer and weaker, and that's what we're looking for. But be aware that the milk may cause the crust to bake out to a darker than desired color. Possibly the least offensive action that you can take would be to maximize the dough absorption (use as much water as you can while still being able to handle the dough, and then rounding the dough into balls , coating the dough balls with salad oil and placing into individual plastic bags, like bread bags. Twist the open end of the bag to close and tuck the pony tail under the dough ball as you place it into the cooler to cold ferment at least overnight. On the following day, remove the dough balls from the cooler and allow them to temper AT room temperature for about 2-hours, then turn the dough ball out onto the press platten and press the dough ball out into a pizza skin. As you pick up the pizza skin from the platten and transfer it to a screen, disk or peel you can adjust the final shape and size of the skin pretty easily. The key here is to make sure the dough has been well fermented and receives a minimum amount of handling after the fermentation period, this is why the bag method works better in this application than the dough box procedure since you run the risk of over handling and tightening the dough ball as you work it out of the plastic dough boxand transfer it to the press platten.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online tinroofrusted

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2013, 11:27:21 AM »
Hi Tom,

I see why they call you the dough doctor!  What a great response.  I guess it doesn't take very much handling at all to tighten up the dough again after it has fermented and relaxed, if even moving it from a tray to the press would cause it to seize up again. 

You are a pretty amazing resource for folks on this forum. Thanks! 

TinRoof

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2013, 12:03:30 PM »
There is a minor but important correction to what Tom has said in his last post. Foremost Farms no longer owns the PZ-44 product. It, along with other ingredients, was just recently sold to Agropur: http://www.foremostfarms.com/News-and-Events/current/Foremost%20Farms%20USA%20Sells%20Blending%20Business%20to%20Agropur.pdf. I discovered this today when I unsuccessfully tried to find the Nutrition information on the PZ-44 product. That means that all of the links on this forum to that product are now dead. We may have to wait awhile for the PZ-44 product information to show up at Agropur.

Peter

EDIT (2/7/2013): I was able to find a copy of the Foremost Farms PDF document on the PZ-44 product at the Wayback Machine at http://web.archive.org/web/20060311221117/http://www.foremostfarms.com/products/ingredient/pdf/450PZ44.pdf
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:37:59 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline norma427

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2013, 12:42:50 PM »
I don’t know if the PZ-44 Nutrition information is still the same since Foremost Farms sold it, but this is what I have if it is of any help.  I might have other papers about the PZ-44 product and will look for them if needed.

Norma

Edit:  Sorry Peter I didn't see you edited you post before I posted.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2013, 12:44:34 PM by norma427 »
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Offline Dntdave

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2013, 11:27:36 PM »
Tom,
Thank you so much for a great detailed reply. I placed an order for some Pz-44 today and can't wait to give it a try. I will keep you posted on how it turns out. Again thank you for your time. You are truly a wealth of knowledge.
Dave

Offline Agropur Ingredients

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2013, 01:59:16 PM »
Hey Guys -

Been doing some digging online and have noticed some chatter in regards to PZ-44 applications, new owners, specs, etc. Well - lucky to have stumbled here as I handle the marketing and communications for Agropur Ingredients, the new owners of the PZ-44 Dough Conditioner. We are also brand new sponsors to the World Pizza Champions! As an initial introduction, I’d like to introduce our company, our brands and then of course myself and my colleague, Phil Blanchard, our Bakery Division Sales Manager. I am putting together a survey to get to know both the WPC members and others in the industry to get to know you and what your set-up is like, what your experience with PZ-44 has been, what kind of support we can provide to you, etc. If you would be willing to take a quick 10 minute survey, send me a message or email me at corrie.reilly@agropur.com! Mostly, just here to hear what you guys have got to say and get to know what you're looking for from us as a supplier and provide any info or samples I can to you.

About Agropur Ingredients
2013 was actually the commencement year of the rebranding to Agropur Ingredients. As a business, Agropur Ingredients brings together the ingredient and formulation strength of Agropur’s Cheese & Ingredient Division (CID), Main Street Ingredients and the newly acquired Foremost Farm Dry Blending Business. We host an innovative and highly quality derived portfolio of food ingredients including: Cornerstone® Protein Products, Crino® Premium Dairy Ingredients, Keystone® Stabilizer Systems, BakiGen® Bakery Ingredients, Capstone® Anti-caking Agents, IsoChill® Value-added Dairy Ingredients and DariGen® Select Specialty Powders, PZ-44® Dough Conditioner and Reddi-Sponge® Dough Developer. www.agropuringredients.com should launch in the next couple weeks!

About Agropur Cooperative (Our Parent Company) Founded in 1938, Agropur is an important player in the North American dairy industry. With sales of $3.8 billion, the Cooperative is a source of pride for its 3,400 dairy producer owners and 6,000 employees. Agropur processes more than 3.3 billion litres of milk per year in its 28 plants across Canada and the United States, and boasts an impressive line of products that includes such prestigious brands as Natrel, Québon, OKA, Farmers, Central Dairies, Sealtest, Island Farms, Agropur Grand Cheddar and iögo. For more information, please visit www.agropur.com
________________________________________
About PZ-44
PZ-44 is a powdered dough conditioner that saves you significant time and money, without sacrificing flavor, quality or consistency. It makes your dough easier to work and won’t affect the original taste of your formula.

That means you spend less time handling, stretching and rolling.

Scale PZ-44 into the mixer with your flour and other dry ingredients to:
• Reduce shrink back
• Deliver a richer, golden crust color
• Results in a more pliable dough
• Eliminate tearing
• Made from carefully blended natural ingredients like sweet dairy whey and a protein component called L-cysteine, PZ-44 conditions your dough naturally.
________________________________________
Your Reps
My name is Corrie, I handle the marketing & communications at Agropur Ingredients. This is inclusive of all our ingredients but I have a special place for the bakery industry and being able to interact with customers/vendors on a personal level. If ever in doubt shoot me a message and I can either provide you an answer or connect you to the correct person for follow-up. We're in the backend of rebranding our current website to agropuringredients.com - it should be up in the next couple months for you all to explore!
Phil Blanchard, our bakery division sales manager will also be a great resource for you all.

contact us anytime at ingredients@agropur.com

Phil and myself will be attending NAPICS (Pizza & Ice Cream Show) in Columbus, OH to support Michael and the team. If you will be in attendance please let me know as I’d love the opportunity to get to meet you all. http://www.napics.com/


thanks and hope to hear from you!

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Offline c0mpl3x

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »
i assume this is a next day dough? try increasing your water (half gallon, your hydration is around 55% i assume off head math) and perhaps reduce two or three on the oil.  easy, simple, and will be slightly cheaper.  too much oil caused me a lot, and i do mean a LOT of issues in the past using higher protein flours, to the point that i would be down to .5% oil and 65% hydration with no extra kneading, with extended resting to eliminate tearing.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 03:33:04 PM by c0mpl3x »
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Offline sonny.eymann

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Re: Dough won't stay stretched.
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2013, 09:09:34 PM »
There are other solutions that are low tech that also work. I have a doughXpress Dm 18 that I have learn to use well but today don't use at all.

First there is no doubt that you want well relaxed dough.  So using AP flour helps a lot, 2 day or more  low temp ferment also helps.
I find each batch of dough reacts a little different but when I use the press. I spray the top with olive oil after I form and fold dough into 1/4 than put on a Lloyds pan to finish stretching to the correct size. It sometimes does come back a little but after sauced and topped I re stretch to the correct size and because it is topped it will stay.   also I sometimes use a Lloyds hex disk and it stays put without sticking.

I think pressing and placing on the Lloyds hex disks, maybe 10 to 20 at a time than when topped readjusted if necessary would work well.

Sonny
« Last Edit: December 10, 2013, 09:51:14 PM by sonny.eymann »


 

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