Author Topic: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!  (Read 22005 times)

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Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #20 on: September 05, 2007, 01:32:14 AM »
Here in the second pie cooked in the Deni at 675F...



Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2007, 01:38:03 AM »
More of the second pie...


Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2007, 02:17:00 AM »
toddster63.....Good looking pies. A little more browning on the top and you'll have a first class pizza. What was the hydration % on the dough?

Edit: I reread your post and saw that it was 68%.

    Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 02:35:54 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2007, 02:38:51 AM »
toddster63.....Good looking pies. A little more browning on the top and you'll have a first class pizza. What was the hydration % on the dough?

    Villa Roma

Thanks, Villa Roma, coming from the Black Egg innovator that means a lot...! The Lehman dough for this first run was 68% hydration. I am real jazzed about trying some new flours out--it seems like the KA bread flour just won't brown for me--even when I have added sugar and oil (though that was at 500F). Everyone around here seems either KASL or Caputo crazy, and now that I have 800F temps to play with, exploring the Caputo should be fun. I'm lucky in that a local restaurant supplier (Surfas) sells 3lb bags of the Caputo Pizzeria for $4...

I suspect though, with this Deni unit, that the KASL will probably be the big winner at around 700F temps. We'll see. Has anyone noticed dramatically improved browning with the higher protein/gluten in the KASL as opposed to the KA bread?

I also just got some KA European Artesian flour, that made the best loaf of rustic bread ever--I mixed it with just a little of their white whole wheat, and it was incredible--the best texture ever--spongy and richer than any other bread flour I have used. I want to try that for pizza dough as well, though it didn't brown as quickly or uniformly as their regular bread flour (which makes sense as it is 11.7 protien, same as the KA AP). But it did brown in a way that my friend said he's seen "on fancy breads"...

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2007, 03:31:07 AM »
toddster63....I've had good luck with Gold Medal Harvest King flour. It's a self proclaimed artesian flour and I add in 50% whole grains. I get it for as little as $.89 for a 5 pound bag on sale.

I especially like rye flour but it can make the dough heavy so I also use some whole wheat. I use a rye starter which really gives the lift and strength needed to raise a dough with 50% whole grains. One side benefit is the crust browns up nicely.

Here's the pics of the pizza made with 50% whole grains. I used 33% stone ground rye and 17% stone ground whole wheat with a 68% hydration rate.

The recipe:
400 gm GM Harvest King bread flour
268 gm Hodgson mills stone ground whole rye flour
132 gm Hodgson mills stone ground whole wheat flour
800 gm

362 gm cold water (45%)
182 gm cold milk (23%)
544 gm (68%)

1 cup stiff rye starter
16 gm sugar (2%)
16 gm salt (2%)
16 gm olive oil (2%)

Mix together to combine in KitchenAid mixer on stir for 2 minutes, let rest 30 minutes. Mix on stir for 3 minutes. Let rise at room temperature with a stretch and  fold every 3-4 hours. Scale at 180 gm and let rise for another 2 hours for a total of 9 hours. Baked at 675+ degrees for 3 minutes in the LBE.


    Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 04:01:50 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2007, 08:59:56 AM »
toddster63,

Theoretically, all else being equal, the King Arthur bread flour (which I assume you used) should yield a slightly lighter crust than, say, the KASL, because the KABF has a lower protein content (12.7%) than the KASL (14.2%). However, depending on the oven and the way the pizza is baked, it is possible to coax more crust color out of the KABF (usually you need more top heat). Since you now have some dried dairy whey (the correct baker's grade form), you can try adding some of that to the KABF to get more crust color. I have used the dried dairy whey with all-purpose flour and vital wheat gluten and got very good crust coloration with that combination (I was using a modified Lehmann dough formulation).

I hope you will keep us informed on your progress with the different flours. Some time ago, on the A16 thread, I described the results I achieved using the dried dairy whey with a Caputo 00 dough. At the time, doing that seemed to be a breakthrough effort for those of us who were trying to get more crust color with the Caputo dough in a standard, unmodified home oven, although I was only using the dried dairy whey for its intended purpose--to increase crust coloration without adding sweetness to the crust. I found that the dried dairy whey altered the texture and feel of the dough and produced a somewhat different result than a Caputo 00 dough alone. I mention this just in case you do similar tests. Maybe you can confirm my results. In your case, you should be able to use the expanded dough calculating tool (at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html) to create a dough formulation or to modify an existing dough formulation to incorporate the dried dairy whey, which is one of the ingredients usable in the enhanced tool. If you need any help, let me know, although from your various posts you seem already to have a good grasp of the use of baker's percents and thickness factors/dough weights.

Peter
« Last Edit: September 05, 2007, 09:01:46 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #26 on: September 06, 2007, 12:13:17 AM »
Pete,

Thanks for the info. I have read probably 80% of all your posts here on pizzamaking.com, ever. You have been most helpful. In particular I have read everything you have ever posted regarding dairy whey or Baker's powdered milk, as I have been very interested in finding alternative methods of browning other than oil and sugar. I have been reading and studying here for several months, learning all I can, and trying things that sounded like they would fit my goals in pizza making. My two biggest goals that have evolved to the forefront are oven spring (as close to the pics such as Marco has posted as I can get), and browning of the top crust without prolonged baking times--anything over 5-6 minutes is out (I like the cheese melted but NOT browned). I feel I have made sound progress with oven spring, and so now the biggest unsolved factor seems to be top crust browning. I will keep you posted of my experiments and how it jives with what you have experienced and posted.

I have felt driven in my goals as I live in a bachelor studio apartment with NO kitchen; I have a small space for cooking, and must utilize countertop appliances. This has been a challenge, and I am so thankful for the internet--for finding things like butane powered high BTU gas burners, and of course the Deni Pizza Bella. Cooking pizza in a kitchen-less apartment is a real challenge, let me tell you. Any alternative methods of cooking pies gets my attention--such as the Pizza Bella, or Villa Roma's Little Black Egg. I have even considered, in my Neapolitan crazed moments, about getting a Beehive terra cotta wood-fired oven for out on my large patio.

It feels good to be contributing to this place that has taught and given me so much.


Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #27 on: September 06, 2007, 02:58:30 AM »
Villa Roma,

I have noticed your use of different flours--sounds delicous, particularly the rye. Thanks for the recipe, I'm gunna have to try that.  Looks scrumptious, and that browning is perfect. Your pies have always impressed me, as well as made my mouth water...

So many great ideas and thinkers around here--what a place and incredible resource pizzamaking.com is....!

Offline oldnewbie

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #28 on: September 06, 2007, 10:19:27 AM »
Hi,

FYI
I have just ordered the Deni Stone Surface Pizza Oven -2100 from http://www.homebrands.com/.
The price was $60 with $10 shipping (to Ohio).

Leo

Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #29 on: September 06, 2007, 10:43:49 AM »
Oldnewbie: that is where i got mine. Ordered on the 29th of aug, and it still hasn't shipped.

Called them yesterday, and they said they should be getting them in this week, so it should ship soon. We'll see!


Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #30 on: September 06, 2007, 03:45:36 PM »
Todd, regarding your pizza. HAve you thought of putting the top element and bottom elements on independent controls so you can turn the elements on and off as necessary? Basically preheat to 750 or whatever, then switch the bottom element off and force the top one one....

I don't even have my oven yet, and i've already got all kinds of mods to be made!

jason

Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #31 on: September 06, 2007, 09:52:27 PM »
Todd, regarding your pizza. HAve you thought of putting the top element and bottom elements on independent controls so you can turn the elements on and off as necessary? Basically preheat to 750 or whatever, then switch the bottom element off and force the top one one....

I don't even have my oven yet, and i've already got all kinds of mods to be made!

jason


Yeah, Jason, I sure have thought about separating the heating controls; someone else mentioned this idea a few years ago on Steve's original Pizza Bella thread. And I may very well do this, who knows. I still have plenty more playing with the Bella, so time will tell...

The problems I can see is that like most electrical coil heating elements, the top heating element on the Deni is not just on or off--it has to get up to temperature, and it does so rather slowly. Yes, it can get red orange hot like a broiler, but not real fast. On my second pie I turned the unit all the way up after two minutes, and by the time I removed the pie almost two minutes later, the top unit was getting orange-esque and was hot, but not up to full bright orange, broiler type temp yet...

As I remember, I mainly saw the elements at bright fire hot orange at the higher temps--800F-1000F.

I think what I will try next is to put the pie in at around 700F, and then instantly turn the unit up full blast. In the four minutes or less that the pie will cook, I don't think the stone can heat up enough to over-brown the bottom, and hopefully the top will get a good (near glowing orange) blast... We'll see.

I guess in the end I would say that the Pizza's Bella's heat-up response time isn't really fast enough to call for having to have the top and bottom heating elements on distinct circuits. On the other hand I can see the advantages of getting the elements red-orange hot, and then turning off the bottom element--though I suspect that by the time this happened, the stone might be too hot already from merely the top element which is rather close to the stone.

Side note: with the factory default (unmodified) thermostat the top element NEVER gets glowing red hot. After 12 minutes or so, the unit just turns off, at around 550F--so I am not sure how great it is for the elements to run this hot....? Something to possibly consider for longevity's (or safety's) sake. Another thing to consider is that when the Deni was up to 800F on the stone, the plastic housing measured around 330F on the bottom and 276F on the top--we are talking HIGH temps around this thing when modified! I certianly would never let children anywhere near this unit when running it so hot!

Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #32 on: September 06, 2007, 10:08:42 PM »
Interesting....can't wait to get mine to start experimenting.
Also, the little black egg is looking mighty nice, specially since i already have an outdoor turkey fryer/propane burner....

Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2007, 01:23:22 AM »
Here's PICS of my latest run from my modified Pizza Bella...

KABF (100%)      272 g/9.6 oz
WATER (70%)     190.5 g/6.7 oz
IDY (.40)            1.09g/ .36 tsp
SALT (1.25%)       3.4 g/ 1 tsp
(Diamond Crystal Kosher)

Retarded for 48 hours in fridge, risen at room temp for 3 hours before baking. I raised the yeast percentage in this batch, and it was too high without added sugar--the dough was on the verge of over-fermentation, forming large bubbles on the counter during the rise, and one ball formed one in the fridge as well. Spring was okay, but not as good as with other batches made with KABF in the past.

Topped with Polly-O and spicy (hot) Italian Sausage. Baked for 5 minutes at 730F, raising the thermostat to highest setting as pizza was inserted.

This pie looks the part (particularly considering it was KABF), but it was overdone, and very chewy and not a lot of fun to eat. Plus the sausage was just terrible--Safeway's own brand, yech!

3-4 minutes at around 700F seems to be the sweet spot for the Pizza Bella, though the browning, with a puritan dough formulation (only flour, water, yeast, salt) isn't intense.

I went with KABF this round after making my first pie with KASL last week, and getting no oven spring hardly at all with a 68% hydration, though the KASL was much tastier and crisper. I need to do more experimenting with the KASL. I do seem to get much better oven spring with the KABF. Maybe a batch of the KASL at around 70%-72%...?





Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2007, 01:25:09 AM »
More pics of the above 9/14/07 pie...

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2007, 06:35:13 AM »
toddster63....If you want to slow down the fermentation try cutting the yeast in half and use cold water. I store a bottle of water in the refer and it's about 40 degrees when I add it to my dough. My finished dough temp after kneading is just south of 70 degrees. It really puts the brakes on the runaway fermentation train. I also like to go with a little more salt, 2% works good and will also slow down the fermentation and help with browning.

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 15, 2007, 06:42:53 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline jasonmolinari

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2007, 09:05:34 AM »
The pizza looks nice. Sucks about the actual flavor:)

I'm still waiting for these dudes to ship my deni oven...bah!

Offline Villa Roma

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2007, 03:00:34 PM »
toddster63.....I was making pizza today and made an extra 2 pizza batch of white flour pizzas made with Harvest King. I only used a pinch of yeast, no sugar or oil. I mixed the dough by hand with a spoon and it was very slack. These pizzas were about 5 hours old. The dough should have been aged more but it came out good anyway. Ideally, I would have used a preferment or sourdough starter but I was pressed for time.

       Villa Roma
« Last Edit: September 16, 2007, 12:41:50 AM by Villa Roma »

Offline abatardi

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #38 on: September 16, 2007, 01:45:04 AM »
Beautiful crumb.  What is your hydration at?  Looks like you got a bit of excess flour on the edge from shaping that got baked on though.  But that one just might get me to eat a slice of hawaiian.  :-)

- aba
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Offline toddster63

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Re: Modding out my Pizza Bella: super results!
« Reply #39 on: September 16, 2007, 01:48:08 AM »
Your corniciones look as good as some pics that Marco has posted around here, Villa Roma; you have much reason to be proud. Your tremendous oven spring is evidence that a Santos fork mixer isn't necessary for Napoletana-esque corniciones--at least in terms of oven spring.

 I know that you autolyse, Villa Roma, but how long do you generally knead for? Is there something that the dough does that you look for to tell you the kneading is done? I try to under-knead, and particularly with the new KA spiral dough hook, which is so much more effective than the ol' C hook was. The new KA 600 is marvelous all around--I have never heard it bog down with any of my yeasted doughs at all--whereas my Artisian would strain slightly on a regular basis. The move from 325 watts to 575 and the all steel gears really makes a difference.

I picked up a bag of Harvest King the other day--it is on the list for playing with, after the Caputo. Tomorrow, next up, is a very wet dough with KASL and the Patsy's/Versano preferment culture. I can't take another batch of flavor-less commercial yeast risen dough, ugg...