Author Topic: What do they use>?  (Read 1598 times)

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Offline Scattergun2570

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What do they use>?
« on: February 11, 2013, 01:29:58 AM »
I know pizzerias around here in NY do not use olive oil for fat,like most of the googled recipes I have run into. So I ask you guys..when they make a huge batch of dough in that big ole mixer,,what are they putting in there?


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 08:59:13 AM »
SG;
If you are asking what do most pizzerias use for fat, that will get you a mixed bag of answers. Some pizzerias use nothing but pure olive oil, for others that is too expensive, or doesn't provide the flavor profile their customers are looking for so they will use any of the following: canola oil, corn oil, and common "vegetable" oil. Others who want the flavor of oil but not the associated cost will use a blended oil typically consisting of about 20% olive oil and 80% canola oil. The blended oil is probably the one most commonly encountered. In a few places butter, margarine or lard are used, but these are by far the exceptions.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online Pete-zza

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 09:13:06 AM »
I remember some years ago that Tom Lehmann wrote about the use of pomace olive oil instead of the better olive oils. With that in mind, I once suggested using pomace olive oil to a pizza operator in Idaho who was using the higher quality olive oil. He adopted the recommendation and reported back that neither he nor his customers could tell the difference. He also saved some money in the process because of the lower cost. In his case, he could have gone to even cheaper oils but he was insistent on using olive oil because of its richer flavor. He was also using high quality cheeses and Stanislaus tomatoes and did not want to cheapen his product.

I subsequently made a similar suggestion to a pizza operator in Arkansas who was specializing in a NY/NJ style of pizza. She also reported back that neither she nor her customers could detect the change.

Peter

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 09:43:12 AM »
I wonder if the choice of oil has a direct or noticeable effect on browning or the wetting effect.

John

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 09:59:59 AM »
I don't know, but I would tend to doubt there is a meningful difference in wetting effect and probably not browning either.

Using shortening vs. oil has a noticeable effect on the baked texture with the former making the crust crispier (NY style).

I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 10:18:58 AM »
Peter;
We continue to use pomace oil as our main "go to" olive oil in our annual pizza seminar. The question was also raised if the oil had any influence on the browning properties of the crust or the way the dough absorbs water. While there may be slight differences in color attributable to the source of oil, the color variance is well within the normal for color variation with normal baking properties, so for all practical purposes, the type of oil has no real impact upon crust color characteristics. However, we do know for sure that oil can/will impact the way the flour absorbs water. We have all heard stories of how the humidity affects the dough absorption, just an old wives tale. But, if you put the oil and water together in the bowl, and then add the flour, the oil floats to the top of the water where it contacts the flour and promptly proceeds to soak into it, rendering the proteins responsibly for forming gluten ineffective in that important role. Remember how/why you make a rue when making gravy? Same thing happens here. When this happens, the doughs take on a different feel due to the difference in gluten development. To correct for this condition, I developed a mixing procedure (called the delayed oil addition method) where the oil is not added to the dough until the flour has had a chance to hydrate on the water, which is typically about 2-minutes into the mixing cycle for 60 and 80-quart size mixers, the oil is then added and incorporated into the dough without any problems due to interference with gluten development.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 12:36:40 PM »
Tom, I hear what you're saying about oil affecting the way flour absorbs water and that is intuitive, but you're not saying that different oils (i.e. pomace, evoo, vegetable, etc.) will have a meaningfully different impact on the way flour absorbs water, correct?
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 02:07:08 PM »
Absolutely right, all oils impact the dough, or should I say the "flour" in this manner. Shortening is a whole different matter as the crystalline nature of the shortening prevents it from being absorbed by the flour, unless it is melted, and in that case it now acts like an oil.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 02:58:04 PM »
Tom,

In the few pizza doughs I've used shortening, I've melted it. Have you had much experience with shortening in pizza dough, and if so, is it typically added melted or cut in like a pastry?
I love pigs. They convert vegetables into bacon.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 03:48:50 PM »
Tom,

Also, what would be the effect of mixing the oil, especially in large quantities (think Chicago deep dish), in with the flour before adding the water and the yeast and the rest of the ingredients?

Peter


Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #10 on: February 11, 2013, 04:58:36 PM »
Peter;
What you end up with is a bunch of gray colored oil that is oil soaked. Because gluten is formed when two of the wheat proteins, (glutenin and gliadin) are agitated in the presence of water, and the water, in this case will not displace the oil that has soaked into the flour, a good portion of the flour is incapable of providing to the gluten matrix, as a result the doughs are wet and somewhat sticky not to mention lumpy if mixing is not vigorous enough to break up those lumps of oil soaked flour. The shortening or solid fat, as it is called, works because it does not soak into the flour, instead, it only coats the outside of it which still allows for the flour to be hydrated to form gluten. Going one step above the Blitz method as I described, commercial producers use hard fat flakes (kinda look like those old soap flakes),and they mix these into the dough just about 4-minutes prior to the end of the mixing time. They can get away using the fat flakes in this manner because those flakes are so hard that they are almost impossible to work into the dough as can happen with shortening if it is mixed too much. Those hard fat flakes then melt during baking and the fat is absorbed into the surrounding dough. The holes remaining serve the same purpose as the chunks of shortening, to give a pastry like appearance and to some extent mouthfeel/eating characteristic.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #11 on: February 11, 2013, 05:36:17 PM »
Tom,

What prompted my question is an article (at http://digital.bnpmedia.com/publication/?i=37488&p=14) I read recently about the Home Run Inn frozen pizza processing facility where it was stated that the oil is added to the flour and then the yeast and salt. The article was silent about when the water is added. As you perhaps know, HRI uses hot dough presses to form the skins. A characteristic of a HRI pizza crust is a flakiness and biscuit-like quality. I thought that perhaps the addition of the oil to the flour might have been responsible for those characteristics. There is also a lot of oil in the dough.

Peter
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 05:59:46 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #12 on: February 12, 2013, 08:03:35 AM »
Peter;
I helped them to make the transition from store to wholesale, and I also helped them to set up their pressing parameters. The dough that they use is unique in some perspectives but pretty normal in others, here's what I mean. UNIQUE: They do mix the oil into the flour to achieve a weaker, more tender eating dough characteristic. They can get away with it to an extent due to the high speed mixing that they employ. PRETTY NORMAL: The dough is then divided and processed (pressed) without any human hands touching the dough. Any stickiness the dough might have is negated by the addition of oil.
If you look at the nutritional facts panel on commercially made frozen pizzas more often than not you will see high calorie counts from fat as well as high salt levels. This is pretty normal for this type of pizza, but to the credit of the industry, some manufacturers are beginning to address this by reducing fat and salt (sodium) levels in their pizzas as consumers demand healthier foods.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Online Pete-zza

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #13 on: February 12, 2013, 08:20:46 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for that clarification. In the HRI situation you described, when would the water go into the bowl, before or after the flour/oil mixture?

I have looked at the HRI Nutrition Facts quite closely. And I think it is safe to say that they are using a lot of oil, maybe even close to 20%, for maybe a 15-16 ounce dough ball (for a 12" frozen pizza).

Peter
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 08:26:03 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: What do they use>?
« Reply #14 on: February 12, 2013, 08:56:13 AM »
Peter;
The way the oil is typically added is as follows: Dry ingredients are first added to the mixing bowl, then the water is added and the mixing cycle started, as the mixing cycle starts the oil is pumped into the mixing bowl and the dough is mixed in their usual manner. This prevents large clumps of oil soaked flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor