Author Topic: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?  (Read 6392 times)

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Offline The Dub Oracle

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Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« on: February 11, 2013, 10:28:15 AM »
A while ago i bought a profesional MGM electric oven.
I baked problem free pizza's at 360 degrees celcius up with a down temperature of 270.
The baking time whas 3 to 4 minutes.
But one week ago i wanted to bake at 450 degrees celsius with a bottum temperature of 280 to begin with.
The oven took a long time to reach the 450 so i baked at 430 degrees but i had to take the pizza out after 2 minutes because bottem began to burn.
I just thought to decrease the bottem temperature to 260 last weekend but i discovered that this whas unpossible.
I turned the thermostat to check what the temperature whas and it whas more than 350 degrees.
In that way my pizza would had burned also so i placed the pizza on tinfoil, it worked by the way.
But the point is that the bottem temperature is not controleble above 380 degrees, the upper element will start to heat the stone to mutch.
It must be cooled in that way, not heated.
Is there anyone that knows about this problem ?
Do i have a bad oven ?

The 2 minute pizza tasted better than before, the ingredients tasted fresher, the tomato sauce whas reddish and fresh.
In that way i discovered that it must be baked in this heat and not more than 2.5 minutes i gues.
I want to keep them baking in this way, i am also thinking about modificate my oven.
I also builded my own electric oven ( maybe you remember ) and in that way i want to modificate this one.
I am thinking of building my own heat element into the oven and to cool the botten with a ventilator that works on the lower thermosthat.
I can do this with using relais to overcome some technical problems.
The lower element will be disconnected.

Is there anyone that experienced the same problems ?
Is there a other solution ?
I dont wont to place a second stone for a amount of time for the right temperature "like in my old own oven", in that way i gained nothing.


Here is my oven.





 
« Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 12:16:48 PM by Steve »


Offline shuboyje

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #1 on: February 11, 2013, 11:47:29 AM »
Before messing with the oven I would personally try to lower your thickness factor a bit and use less toppings.  If you get those dialed down to what you normally see in a two minute pizza and you still have issues, then you can mess with the oven.
-Jeff

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2013, 12:40:33 PM »
Before messing with the oven I would personally try to lower your thickness factor a bit and use less toppings.  If you get those dialed down to what you normally see in a two minute pizza and you still have issues, then you can mess with the oven.

The pizza on the video whas a thick one i must say, it whas a earlier pizza i baked on lower temperature not the burned one.
I think its not the solution to thinner it.
The undersite whas burned an the crust whas not even brown yet.
For to mutch heat difference.

Offline shuboyje

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2013, 12:51:29 PM »
I hear ya and you probably still need to change something in what you are doing with the oven, but fast baked pizzas are ALL thin and lightly topped for a reason.  Be it Naples, New York, New Haven, fast baked pizzas are always very thin and very lightly topped because they must be to evenly cook in that time.  So that considered if I was in your situation I would focus on making traditional Neapolitan style pizzas while dialing in the oven. 

For the oven situation, it looks like the top heat is coming directly from elements.  That means then should heat up fairly quickly.  Can you turn the top elements down all the way or off, preheat the hearth and once the hearth is up to or near temp turn on the top full blast and cook your pie?
-Jeff

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2013, 01:36:55 PM »
I hear ya and you probably still need to change something in what you are doing with the oven, but fast baked pizzas are ALL thin and lightly topped for a reason.  Be it Naples, New York, New Haven, fast baked pizzas are always very thin and very lightly topped because they must be to evenly cook in that time.  So that considered if I was in your situation I would focus on making traditional Neapolitan style pizzas while dialing in the oven.  

For the oven situation, it looks like the top heat is coming directly from elements.  That means then should heat up fairly quickly.  Can you turn the top elements down all the way or off, preheat the hearth and once the hearth is up to or near temp turn on the top full blast and cook your pie?

I dont understand what you are saying in your last line.
I just set the temperatures so the temperatures must be right when i put my pizza in.
Turning off the upper element is no option, when i turn it on again it takes a while till it radiates the heat i need to bake the top.
It mostly bakes on the temperature that is stored in the oven, when i open the door temperature drops rappidly, the needed heat is stored in the metal and stone.
The bottem is to hot thats all.
When i make my pizza thinner it would burn also i think, but you are right that it would cook quicker.
Only because you put in less cold mass, that cools the oven down so it will take longer reach the temperature again where it started.
When you have a massive oven or a wood oven this is not a problem but there is a point that it just wont cook inside ofcause.
You talk also about heat radiation or infrared waves i think, that is something else than just hot air that is heated by the metal, the element and stone, plus heat radiation itself.
Like the Ferrari pizza pan, heat radiation from element only.

The union tasted also good i must say, otherwise after 3-4  minutes it tasted even bitter.
When i order a pizza it also must been been baked around 2 minutes, unions tasted good and it had also a fresh taste.
Toppings where normal to, they even layed a thick slice of pork on top, nothing wrong underneath.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 01:39:37 PM by The Dub Oracle »

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2013, 01:54:39 PM »
I hear ya and you probably still need to change something in what you are doing with the oven, but fast baked pizzas are ALL thin and lightly topped for a reason.  Be it Naples, New York, New Haven, fast baked pizzas are always very thin and very lightly topped because they must be to evenly cook in that time.  So that considered if I was in your situation I would focus on making traditional Neapolitan style pizzas while dialing in the oven. 

For the oven situation, it looks like the top heat is coming directly from elements.  That means then should heat up fairly quickly.  Can you turn the top elements down all the way or off, preheat the hearth and once the hearth is up to or near temp turn on the top full blast and cook your pie?

I understand your second line better after reading it a couple of times.
This is not a radiation element like from a street heater, or shower heater, a quartz element i believe.
It turns not red hot !
The heating element i used for my own build oven does!
Its from wire and it stays red hot, maybe the solution in the temperure drop when you open the oven.
Someone adviced me also to let the top element stay on, but that wont work because the stone gets to hot.
If i cool it, like i said it will work.
I think i must redesign the complete oven in this way, even the heat elements.

Offline bakeshack

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2013, 03:40:57 PM »
Have you tried baking pizza in teglia alla Pizzarium in your oven?  Your oven is perfect for that style of pizza.   

When you were baking at 360C for 3-4 mins, did you use any oil or sugar in your dough?  And are you using the same dough formula when you increased the temp?


Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2013, 04:04:03 PM »
Have you tried baking pizza in teglia alla Pizzarium in your oven?  Your oven is perfect for that style of pizza.  

When you were baking at 360C for 3-4 mins, did you use any oil or sugar in your dough?  And are you using the same dough formula when you increased the temp?



I think sugar is a killer for a pizza, i use no sugar at all, also not in sauce.
I use some olive oil yes, a spoon or so for 200 grams of flower.
I always make the dough the same way, for al baking temperatures.
Just water, fresh yeast, salt and italian flower for pizza, its less sweet also and not that milkey as normal flower.
They talk a lot about dough, it looks like a precise formula but my experience is that it works out always differend for me.
Sometimes it rises very nice in the oven, sometimes not, sometimes bubbles in the dough as i flatten it and sometimes not ( a good sign i think ).
I also do a second rise for about a half hour, after i rebolled the dough by folding it a couple of times.
Then i pull the dough towards one point, like flower top to create a round schape again
I let it rise for 3 hours, than it has 6 times the volume it had, then its time for the second rise.
Just doubled in size in one rise in 1/5 hour never worked for me, it wont rise as mutch in the oven in that way.
I let it double in size in the second rise.
Thats the way i do it, good luck.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 06:46:37 PM by The Dub Oracle »

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2013, 07:14:19 PM »
I keep thinking.

I think that i order 2 extra bottem stones from the suplier.
They are about 1/2 inch thick.
In the first one i mount the heating wire like in my own home build oven, thats 4KW of heating i will mount in the roof of the oven.
I place the second stone on top of the bottem stone with the thermostat sensor in between.
The ventilators will blow air in the space under the stones.

The top thermostat wil be swithing a relais that can handle switching the 4KW, but i dont know if this thermostat can handle it also, i must check this.
The blower under the stones will be switched by the lower thermostat but that wil be by relais also, he must switch on and not off.
I hope its not to technical but thats the solution.

scott123

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2013, 09:06:18 PM »
Albert, as Jeff pointed out, pizza styles and the manner in which their defined are neither arbitrary nor subjective. Someone didn't come along and say, I live in Naples, I like my crust thin, make it thin. They were born out of necessity.  A Neapolitan pizza, with it's fast bake time, in order for the dough to cook through, has to be stretched thin. Because of the thin stretch and floppiness from the fast bake, excessive toppings tend to fall off when you pick it up.

You've got a decision to make- do you want the soft enormously puffy crust you get from a really fast bake, or do you like a massive crust with toppings piled to the heavens?  You can't have both.  If you want puffiness, then Neapolitan should be your goal, especially since you seem to have a top element that might actually be able to produce a Neapolitan bake time (an extremely rare trait for an oven).  The purity of your present formula is already a big step in that direction, but, if you want pizza bliss in 2 minutes, you need to embrace Neapolitan pizza completely- 1/6 of the quantity of toppings and a drastically thinner stretch/far less dough per dough ball.

This will go a very long way in seeing what the oven can and cannot do in a 2 minute time frame.

Once you have the thickness/toppings in order, it's time for an infrared thermometer.  Because the top element is driving up the temp of the hearth, the dial setting for the hearth element tells you very little.  The only way to know the temperature of the hearth is to measure it.

For the temps you'll be working at for Neapolitan, I suggest one of these
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/gm700-1-5-lcd-non-contact-infrared-thermometer-yellow-black-1-x-9v-104614?item=32

They take Euro's and, from what I can tell, it's free shipping to Holland.

After you start taking readings of the hearth I'll have further steps to take- such as possibly going with a different hearth material such as firebrick, which, with a lower conductivity, will slow down the bottom bake, but I wouldn't start firebrick shopping until you work out the thickness and get an infrared thermometer. No matter what you do, please don't buy extra stones of the stone you currently have- that will not help you. And, for now, don't wire in any other elements or add any kind of ventilator.

That's for Neapolitan.

If you're in love with a big crust and lots of toppings and are willing to forgo puffiness, then you can skip the thermometer or any other steps I've proposed. For a huge crust, it's time to turn the temperatures down so that the pizza takes a lot longer to cook- 8-10 minutes and it will also be necessary to add oil to the dough to achieve a bit more tenderness with a longer bake.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2013, 09:15:52 PM by scott123 »


Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2013, 07:28:13 AM »
Albert, as Jeff pointed out, pizza styles and the manner in which their defined are neither arbitrary nor subjective. Someone didn't come along and say, I live in Naples, I like my crust thin, make it thin. They were born out of necessity.  A Neapolitan pizza, with it's fast bake time, in order for the dough to cook through, has to be stretched thin. Because of the thin stretch and floppiness from the fast bake, excessive toppings tend to fall off when you pick it up.

You've got a decision to make- do you want the soft enormously puffy crust you get from a really fast bake, or do you like a massive crust with toppings piled to the heavens?  You can't have both.  If you want puffiness, then Neapolitan should be your goal, especially since you seem to have a top element that might actually be able to produce a Neapolitan bake time (an extremely rare trait for an oven).  The purity of your present formula is already a big step in that direction, but, if you want pizza bliss in 2 minutes, you need to embrace Neapolitan pizza completely- 1/6 of the quantity of toppings and a drastically thinner stretch/far less dough per dough ball.

This will go a very long way in seeing what the oven can and cannot do in a 2 minute time frame.

Once you have the thickness/toppings in order, it's time for an infrared thermometer.  Because the top element is driving up the temp of the hearth, the dial setting for the hearth element tells you very little.  The only way to know the temperature of the hearth is to measure it.

For the temps you'll be working at for Neapolitan, I suggest one of these
http://www.dealextreme.com/p/gm700-1-5-lcd-non-contact-infrared-thermometer-yellow-black-1-x-9v-104614?item=32

They take Euro's and, from what I can tell, it's free shipping to Holland.

After you start taking readings of the hearth I'll have further steps to take- such as possibly going with a different hearth material such as firebrick, which, with a lower conductivity, will slow down the bottom bake, but I wouldn't start firebrick shopping until you work out the thickness and get an infrared thermometer. No matter what you do, please don't buy extra stones of the stone you currently have- that will not help you. And, for now, don't wire in any other elements or add any kind of ventilator.

That's for Neapolitan.

If you're in love with a big crust and lots of toppings and are willing to forgo puffiness, then you can skip the thermometer or any other steps I've proposed. For a huge crust, it's time to turn the temperatures down so that the pizza takes a lot longer to cook- 8-10 minutes and it will also be necessary to add oil to the dough to achieve a bit more tenderness with a longer bake.

I understand.
There is a lot to think about in redesigning a oven.
Its all about what kind of pizza i want to bake.
The real Neapoli pizza is baked in sometimes one minute, i understand thats a differend order of baking.
The thin crust i like, thats normal for italian pizza.
But i mean something in the middle in baking time, 3-4 minutes is to long but 1, 1/5 minutes would be to short, as you said for to mutch toppings.
When i order a pizza here ( new pizzaria in town ) i get a very nice one, the best i tasted here in town.
This is a normal pizza, thin crust with a normal edge, not to puffy and the toppings are normal.
This pizza must be baked in not longer than 3 minutes, i am sure.
If you bake to long the freshness of the ingredients is lost into a dull dampened taste, i hope you understand.
Unnions start to taste bitter ( i did not used them therefor anymore ) and the sauce has lost its freshness and taste, it looks more brown, also the taste of fresh garlic will evaporate or fresh basil.
I dont want that to be happening, all i know is that the baking time must be 2 to less than 3 minutes, after that it will taste overcooked.
This is my cooking plan.

The oven itself cant handle this, the bottem stone will be to hot, a smaller or thinner pizza also will burn i think but will bake quicker.
I wonder how this works in wood ovens they have also no heating on the bottem, you often see that they hold the pizza to the roof and that is for the same reason i think, the bottem is to hot.
I dont have a pile of stones underneath for cooling so i must cool by ventilator or ventilation i think.
The stone is a refractory stone and i hope it can handle some colder temperature beneath, but i am not shure how to do this.
Maybe removing the isolation on the undersite of the iron box will do the job.
I also must replace the top heating element because it will take a hour to reach these temperatures with just one element.
It will take some tuning to get it right.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 07:33:05 AM by The Dub Oracle »

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2013, 08:54:05 AM »
I have this in my mind but i dont know if the refractory ( firebrick stone if i am right ) stone will stand the cold air blown towards it.
A bit straight forward in the topic but this is what i am thinking of.


Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 03:49:11 PM »
I've been thinking, before i do anything i want to be shure that things work out alright.
I think i must have a good thick stone for the bottem, one that stores enough heat to bake the bottem good.
I must glue the second on top of it, in that way the heat conductivity is mutch better.
Because if the stone gets to cold otherwise a heating element will be switched on.
I am afraid that by cooling the stone will crack, also because a other stone is glued on top, or maybe this better, the first one strenghtends the second one.

I also found already a shop where i can buy firebricks, glue and mortar used for fireplaces.
This oven would be in this way a tuned electric woodoven.
I also could by a stone and place it in till it reached the right temperature, but that would cause timestress wile preparing the pizza.
I also saw that topic about changing the elements of that Chines oven, my elements are also not turning red hot.
Heating wire will turn red hot, and if i place 4000 watts of it the oven would reach the right temperature mutch quicker.
Has anyone experience here about glueing pizza stones ?
What about cooling them from the undersite ?
Can refractory stone handle this ?
It would be lesser stress for the stone compared with laying them on a barbeque fire i think.

Offline The Dub Oracle

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Re: Electric oven baking teperature limit ?
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2013, 04:15:44 PM »
I will open a other topic when i modificate my oven.
The planning is complete, i am now at ordering components and stones.  :chef:


 

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