Author Topic: Newbie needs help  (Read 3297 times)

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Offline MotleyCrue

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Newbie needs help
« on: February 12, 2013, 09:40:31 AM »
 :(

I am new to the science of all this.  We want to make a clone of the Pizzeria Luigi New York style pizza, located in San Diego, California.  I have seen and read many of the posts which mention the possible recipe for the dough as well as the sauce.  I know the dough uses Pendleton Power high gluten flour.   I also know the sauce consists of several Stanislaus tomato products, however, i just need to know measurements for each recipe, as well as proofing for the dough, etc etc. 

I am not sure about a lot of things, like preferment.  What is that?  Why or when is it needed?  Also, is there a nice dough and/or sauce tutorial that will easily get me started and on track to understanding pizza dough, how to make it, terms, and the science behind it all?  Eventually my family and I want to open a pizza shop.  Anybody's help would be greatly appreciated. Thank you, and I am excited to join this board!


Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2013, 10:03:36 AM »
Oh by the way I have the following flour to get me started before I can get my hands on Pendleton Power High Gluten flour..... "Gold Medal High gluten unbleached"

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2013, 09:43:21 PM »

MotleyCrue,

You might want to read this thread if you are interested in making a clone of Luigiís pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.0.html

Norma

Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2013, 10:13:42 PM »
MotleyCrue,

You might want to read this thread if you are interested in making a clone of Luigiís pizza. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,14928.0.html

Norma

Hi Norma.  Thanks for your link.  I actually did already read that thread but haven't found an agreed upon dough recipe.  Do you know of one? Also, when I see recipes which say 100% flour, 58% water, or 63% water, do I actually weigh the water?  So if I had 100 pounds of flour, I would have 63 pounds of water if I were using the 63% version recipe?  Also, I saw luigi mix water with yeast and salt or sugar first, then add the flour.  However, under Tom's New York dough recipe rated excellent on this site he adds the yeast and flour to the water. Does the order of mixing those make a difference?  Shouldn't you activate the yeast with the water first before adding the flour?
« Last Edit: February 12, 2013, 10:24:14 PM by MotleyCrue »

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2013, 10:27:21 PM »
Oh by the way I have the following flour to get me started before I can get my hands on Pendleton Power High Gluten flour..... "Gold Medal High gluten unbleached"

Love your handle! Norma's link seems like a great place to start.
Most of the fun in making pizza that you want/like is trial and error, and eating all of the above.
Good luck on your goals and welcome to the forum!
I have not used either flour, so can't help there.
Mark
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2013, 10:46:14 PM »
Hi Norma.  Thanks for your link.  I actually did already read that thread but haven't found an agreed upon dough recipe.  Do you know of one? Also, when I see recipes which say 100% flour, 58% water, or 63% water, do I actually weigh the water?  So if I had 100 pounds of flour, I would have 63 pounds of water if I were using the 63% version recipe?  Also, I saw luigi mix water with yeast and salt or sugar first, then add the flour.  However, under Tom's New York dough recipe rated excellent on this site he adds the yeast and flour to the water. Does the order of mixing those make a difference?  Shouldn't you activate the yeast with the water first before adding the flour?

As far as your understandings of %'s you have it exactly right. Most of the time on this forum we use grams as the standard unit of measure. But that is the nice thing about %, the unit of measure doesn't matter. The yeast situation varies, I use instant yeast so I just mix it into my flour dry, whereas active yeast is better off being proofed beforehand. Also, the very sad part of the situation is getting the right %'s for the pizzas isn't that big of a deal. The hardest part will be having a oven that can cook it the same way. Also you're work flow, how you let the dough rise and such, will be harder to nail down than the %.

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2013, 10:50:53 PM »
Hi Norma.  Thanks for your link.  I actually did already read that thread but haven't found an agreed upon dough recipe.  Do you know of one?

MotelyCrue,

I donít think we ever did agreed on which was the best formulation to use.  I never figured out which was the best formulation myself. 

Norma

Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2013, 11:57:48 PM »
MotelyCrue,

I donít think we ever did agreed on which was the best formulation to use.  I never figured out which was the best formulation myself. 

Norma

Did you see he thread where the guy said he was working on it for three months and came o the following conclusion?  Let me know what you think.  Also, how much does proofing effect taste?  I am hearing that cold fermenting can really effect taste.  Is ADY the best kind of yeast to use?  What is the best type of yeast for a New York style pizza crust?

Quote
I have been working on this dough recipe for 3 months now. I have been asked by a buddy of mine that owns four Italian Restaurant here in Orange County California to clone the Luigi's Pizza dough.

After trying many tries I have settled on the following:

Power Flour Unbleached Flour  100%
Crytsal Geyser Water              63%
IDY                                      .4%
Salt                                     2.0%
Sugar                                   2.5%

Water is heated to 95 degrees and the sugar and yeast are added. Flour and salt are placed in the bowl of my KA and the water, yeast, sugar is added and mixed at speed 3 for 10 minutes. Final dough temperature of 82 degrees. Balled and bench rested for 2 hours and then cold fermented for 18 hours

Today we decide to push this to see if we could do any better. We kept everything the same and varied the hydration. We tried the following, 58%, 63%, 65% and 68%

I preferred the 63%,  most everyone else preferred either the 58% or the 63%. No one preferred the 65% and one person really liked the 68% as it had a Neapolitan texture.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2013, 12:02:03 AM »
Hi Norma.  Thanks for your link.  I actually did already read that thread but haven't found an agreed upon dough recipe.  Do you know of one? Also, when I see recipes which say 100% flour, 58% water, or 63% water, do I actually weigh the water?  So if I had 100 pounds of flour, I would have 63 pounds of water if I were using the 63% version recipe?  Also, I saw luigi mix water with yeast and salt or sugar first, then add the flour.  However, under Tom's New York dough recipe rated excellent on this site he adds the yeast and flour to the water. Does the order of mixing those make a difference?  Shouldn't you activate the yeast with the water first before adding the flour?
MotleyCrue ,
And for the salt...yes, you will often see folks saying to add it as late as possible.
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2013, 07:51:21 AM »
Did you see he thread where the guy said he was working on it for three months and came o the following conclusion?  Let me know what you think.  Also, how much does proofing effect taste?  I am hearing that cold fermenting can really effect taste.  Is ADY the best kind of yeast to use?  What is the best type of yeast for a New York style pizza crust?


MotleyCrue,

I donít recall seeing the thread where someone was working on a Luigiís pizza for 3 months.  When I was experimenting in trying to make a Luigiís pizza I only went by the formulations Peter had set-forth and also what was on the video from DDD.

Do you mean actual proofing of the dough at room temperature, or do you mean scaling the dough, then balling and then cold fermenting the dough balls if that gives a better final taste in the pizza?  I do believe that a longer cold fermentation does give a better taste in the crust (more than one day).  I really donít think ADY gives a much different taste then IDY, but there are places here on the forum that mention that ADY might give a better taste in the crust.  I would think though that it would be hard to tell the differences, unless you are a really advanced pizza maker, or knew what to look for in the taste of the crust. 

It would all depend on what kind of NY style pizza you want to make in finding the right yeast.  There is also cake yeast, or fresh yeast that is sold in blocks or cubes.  You would have to play around with different yeasts and different NY style formulations to see what you think.  I have been playing around with different NY style pizzas for almost 4 years and still havenít found my favorite formulation.  I also really donít know what is my favorite flour to use either and I have tried many flours. 

What kind of oven are you baking in for your NY style pizzas?

Norma

Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2013, 11:41:04 AM »
MotleyCrue,

I donít recall seeing the thread where someone was working on a Luigiís pizza for 3 months.  When I was experimenting in trying to make a Luigiís pizza I only went by the formulations Peter had set-forth and also what was on the video from DDD.

Do you mean actual proofing of the dough at room temperature, or do you mean scaling the dough, then balling and then cold fermenting the dough balls if that gives a better final taste in the pizza?  I do believe that a longer cold fermentation does give a better taste in the crust (more than one day).  I really donít think ADY gives a much different taste then IDY, but there are places here on the forum that mention that ADY might give a better taste in the crust.  I would think though that it would be hard to tell the differences, unless you are a really advanced pizza maker, or knew what to look for in the taste of the crust. 

It would all depend on what kind of NY style pizza you want to make in finding the right yeast.  There is also cake yeast, or fresh yeast that is sold in blocks or cubes.  You would have to play around with different yeasts and different NY style formulations to see what you think.  I have been playing around with different NY style pizzas for almost 4 years and still havenít found my favorite formulation.  I also really donít know what is my favorite flour to use either and I have tried many flours. 

What kind of oven are you baking in for your NY style pizzas?

Norma


Right now i am just using my kitchen oven w a pizza stone.  I saw luigi n the DDD video mix ADY with the water, and sugar too.  Then he added salt, then the flour.  Looks like he then lets the dough sit out for 2 hours, then overnight refrigerate.  Do you know what kind of flour i can find in the upstate New York area that comes close to the Pendleton high gluten flour he uses? Right now i have Gold Medal High Gluten flour, but it is bleached.  I want to find high gluten, unbleached, bromated.  Any info?

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2013, 12:53:38 PM »
Right now i am just using my kitchen oven w a pizza stone.  

Do you know what kind of flour i can find in the upstate New York area that comes close to the Pendleton high gluten flour he uses? Right now i have Gold Medal High Gluten flour, but it is bleached.  I want to find high gluten, unbleached, bromated.  Any info?

MotleyCrue,

Thanks for telling me you are using your kitchen oven with a pizza stone for right now. 

I really donít know what kind of flour you can find in upstate New York area that comes close to Pendleton high gluten flour.  You might call around to distributors and see if they do cash and carry and if any of them do carry Pendleton flours.  Another option might be to try a blend of flours like I did before I had some Pendleton flour to try.  I couldn't really notice any big differences when using blended flours.
 
Norma

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2013, 06:25:55 PM »
I would suggest trying King Arthur Bread Flour before you spend a bunch of money trying to get Power Flour. KABF is unbleached and unbromated and should be easy to find. With respect to gluten content, I believe the difference is only about 0.3% (KABF: 12.7% vs PF: 13.0%)There is no retail packaged flour that is bromated that I know of.

You can always buy Power Flour from Pendleton through Amazon if all else fails: http://www.amazon.com/Pendleton-Flour-Mills-Power-Unbleached/dp/B00AIR5LT0/?tag=pizzamaking-20
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Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2013, 10:33:32 PM »
I would suggest trying King Arthur Bread Flour before you spend a bunch of money trying to get Power Flour. KABF is unbleached and unbromated and should be easy to find. With respect to gluten content, I believe the difference is only about 0.3% (KABF: 12.7% vs PF: 13.0%)There is no retail packaged flour that is bromated that I know of.

You can always buy Power Flour from Pendleton through Amazon if all else fails: http://www.amazon.com/Pendleton-Flour-Mills-Power-Unbleached/dp/B00AIR5LT0/?tag=pizzamaking-20

Thanks craig.  Hmmm i wonder where i can find king arthur around here?..

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2013, 10:49:09 PM »
 
Hmmm i wonder where i can find king arthur around here?..


MotleyCrue,

King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) is sold in most bigger supermarkets.  I would think in your area it would be fairly easy find.

Norma

Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2013, 10:55:45 PM »
MotleyCrue,

King Arthur Bread Flour (KABF) is sold in most bigger supermarkets.  I would think in your area it would be fairly easy find.

Norma

Is it high gluten?

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Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2013, 07:28:31 AM »
Is it high gluten?

MotleyCrue,

To add to what Craig posted, you might want to read this.

If you look at Peterís Master Gluten Mass List at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661  you can see that KABF and Power flour arenít that far apart in protein.  I did most of those gluten mass tests.  Those differences between KABF and Pendleton Power flour donít make big differences when making a pizza dough and how the final pizza will turn out.  Both of those flours are unbromated too.  The  gluten mass tests I did were only done in a home environment with Peterís help, so they arenít completely accurate either.  To do real gluten mass tests special equipment is needed.

Norma

Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #18 on: February 14, 2013, 01:53:22 PM »
MotleyCrue,

To add to what Craig posted, you might want to read this.

If you look at Peterís Master Gluten Mass List at Reply 70 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18075.msg184661.html#msg184661  you can see that KABF and Power flour arenít that far apart in protein.  I did most of those gluten mass tests.  Those differences between KABF and Pendleton Power flour donít make big differences when making a pizza dough and how the final pizza will turn out.  Both of those flours are unbromated too.  The  gluten mass tests I did were only done in a home environment with Peterís help, so they arenít completely accurate either.  To do real gluten mass tests special equipment is needed.

Norma

This is all great info guys.  Thanks for all your help.  So i know how to get started.  I recall seeing KABF, and a lot of it, at our big grocery store chain here in the Syracuse, NY area, Wegmans.  I will go pick some up this weekend.  I guess i will start out by doing a 63% hydration, and then i will try a 58% hydration.  How about that, i am learning the dough lingo  :chef: 

Tell me if this is ok...
1.  Heat up water to 95 degrees.  Add Fleishman's ADY and mix with water for a few minutes to activate yeast. 
2.  Add sugar. 
3.  Add salt to flour then mix with water, sugar and yeast, for i dont know, 5-10 minutes? 
4.  Form dough balls after weighing out at 18 oz. each.
5.  Leave dough balls out for 2 hours in dough bin. 
6.  Refrigerate for 12-24 hours. (What refrigeration temperature is good?)
7.  Make my first pizza with this dough  :pizza:

Hey, there is a pizza place in my area that wins a lot of awards for best pizza.  I noticed the sauce as well as the dough are very very salty.  That is a reason why people like it, in my mind.  What do you guys think of that?  What is a good percentage salt?   Also, what mozzarella should i use that will be similar if not the same as Pizzeria Luigi?  Whole milk mozzarella?

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2013, 02:25:04 PM »
This is all great info guys.  Thanks for all your help.  So i know how to get started.  I recall seeing KABF, and a lot of it, at our big grocery store chain here in the Syracuse, NY area, Wegmans.  I will go pick some up this weekend.  I guess i will start out by doing a 63% hydration, and then i will try a 58% hydration.  How about that, i am learning the dough lingo  :chef: 

Tell me if this is ok...
1.  Heat up water to 95 degrees.  Add Fleishman's ADY and mix with water for a few minutes to activate yeast. 
2.  Add sugar. 
3.  Add salt to flour then mix with water, sugar and yeast, for i dont know, 5-10 minutes? 
4.  Form dough balls after weighing out at 18 oz. each.
5.  Leave dough balls out for 2 hours in dough bin. 
6.  Refrigerate for 12-24 hours. (What refrigeration temperature is good?)
7.  Make my first pizza with this dough  :pizza:

Hey, there is a pizza place in my area that wins a lot of awards for best pizza.  I noticed the sauce as well as the dough are very very salty.  That is a reason why people like it, in my mind.  What do you guys think of that?  What is a good percentage salt?   Also, what mozzarella should i use that will be similar if not the same as Pizzeria Luigi?  Whole milk mozzarella?

Well it is good that you have a plan! I like your enthusiasm.
I run my fridge at 40F or a little lower when I am fermenting dough in there. Use a lower shelf and put in the back to help maintain temp when door is opened.
I use 1.5% salt for my pies, but also sprinkle a bit on the sauce as I am dressing the skin.( if I remember).
I have tried 24-72 hrs cold ferment. I like closer to 72 hrs if I can. Takes some planning.

Water temp is fine for ADY, stir once and let sit in a little of the water for 10 min or so. You will see it become active.
I put my dough balls in the fridge without letting them sit out any time. By letting them sit at room temp for 2 hrs you are encouraging fermentation whereas in the fridge straight away you are retarding fermentaion. Try it both ways and see what you like. The amount of yeast should probably vary depending on your method.

Good luck!!! :pizza:

Mark
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Offline MotleyCrue

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2013, 03:01:11 PM »
Well it is good that you have a plan! I like your enthusiasm.
I run my fridge at 40F or a little lower when I am fermenting dough in there. Use a lower shelf and put in the back to help maintain temp when door is opened.
I use 1.5% salt for my pies, but also sprinkle a bit on the sauce as I am dressing the skin.( if I remember).
I have tried 24-72 hrs cold ferment. I like closer to 72 hrs if I can. Takes some planning.

Water temp is fine for ADY, stir once and let sit in a little of the water for 10 min or so. You will see it become active.
I put my dough balls in the fridge without letting them sit out any time. By letting them sit at room temp for 2 hrs you are encouraging fermentation whereas in the fridge straight away you are retarding fermentaion. Try it both ways and see what you like. The amount of yeast should probably vary depending on your method.

Good luck!!! :pizza:

Mark

Thanks.  What about the yeast?  I know that Luigi uses an ADY.  Is there a yeast which yields better taste?  What is a known better yeast? 

Offline norma427

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2013, 03:10:27 PM »
MotleyCrue,

It is good you are going to try two different formulations.  Yes, you are learning the lingo here on the forum.

You might need a little bit of experimenting also with mixing times.  Some members here on the forum only mix a little past the cottage cheese stage.  The dough then gets smoother when it cold ferments.  If you plan on cold fermenting the dough anywhere from 12-24 hrs. you might need to change the yeast amounts for two different times of cold fermenting on the expanded dough calculation tool. http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html  Regular amounts for salt in a NY style dough can range around 1.75% of the formulation to 2.00% if you donít want a salty tasting crust.  Usually a doubling of the dough while cold fermenting is a good start.  If you do the poppy seed trick you can see how much your dough ferments.

I am not sure of what kind of mozzarella you should try.  I am fairly certain Luigiís uses foodservice mozzarella, which usually only can be purchased though a distributor.  If you use the search features of this forum you can see what mozzarellas members are using at home with good results.

Best of luck!

Norma

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2013, 03:11:01 PM »
Thanks.  What about the yeast?  I know that Luigi uses an ADY.  Is there a yeast which yields better taste?  What is a known better yeast? 

In the yeast arena I have only used ADY & IDY. Currently the IDY is my choice as it seems to be the most popular commercial used on these threads. I have not noticed a difference in taste between the 2. I do like the convenience of being able to add the IDY to the flour and I disolve my sugar( if I use it) and salt in the water prior to adding the flour/yeast combo. Another benefit to the IDY is it's size. When sifting the flour with yeast mixed in it all goes thru the screen the same, the ADY if sifted with the flour seems to stay on top of the screen. Probably no big deal!

Mark
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2013, 04:08:01 PM »
In the yeast arena I have only used ADY & IDY. Currently the IDY is my choice as it seems to be the most popular commercial used on these threads. I have not noticed a difference in taste between the 2. I do like the convenience of being able to add the IDY to the flour and I disolve my sugar( if I use it) and salt in the water prior to adding the flour/yeast combo. Another benefit to the IDY is it's size. When sifting the flour with yeast mixed in it all goes thru the screen the same, the ADY if sifted with the flour seems to stay on top of the screen. Probably no big deal!

Mark
You sift?..... :o
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Newbie needs help
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2013, 04:23:43 PM »
You sift?..... :o

Abserlutely, it's soooo fun ;D

Mark
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