Recreating Pino's - Brighton, MA

[dellavecchia]

I lived two blocks away from this place for 10 years and ate there at least once a week. I had not been there much since I moved to the suburbs nearly six years ago, so driving through the area last night I stopped and got two pies. I ate half of one in traffic on the way home. It is classic NY style in a sea of Boston greek pizza.

I want to try to make this pizza as precisely as possible as a first foray into real NY pizza. It is a 6-8 minute bake; there is barely any crispness; the dough is chewy but very soft; not very thin on the bottom; the sauce is raw tomatoes and the cheese is flavorful and milky. I am pretty sure this is a same day dough.

Anyone want to suggest a starting recipe? I will be using Giustos High Performer (13%).

John

[widespreadpizza]

John,  here is my guess...

60% or less hydration
salt?  you could guess better having eaten it,  I would start at 1.5-2%
2-3% oil
1-2% sugar

any idea on bake temp?

-Marc

[dellavecchia]

John,  here is my guess...

60% or less hydration
salt?  you could guess better having eaten it,  I would start at 1.5-2%
2-3% oil
1-2% sugar

any idea on bake temp?

-Marc

Thank you Marc - I am thinking it is lower than 500, but I could be wrong. It seems that the cheese holds up in the deck oven for 8 minutes. Salt is probably 1.5%, and I am with you on hydration. I was thinking 58% to start.

John

[TXCraig1]

Thank you Marc - I am thinking it is lower than 500,

John

John, based on the temperature data I've surveyed across the forum, I'd estimate 525F.

[dellavecchia]

Thanks Craig. My oven can handle that temp, so that is where I will start.

John

[TXCraig1]

I should have noted that 525 would be to target a 7 minute bake (the middle of your range).

CL

[Jackie Tran]

John, I don't think this pizza will be that hard to recreate.   Craig is on the money with the temp.  For a 6-8 minute bake, I'm estimating the temp to be between 500-550F.  That will vary on the oven but 1 min and even 2 min difference in bake times for this style doesn't drastically change the end result.  

I think Marc's starting recipe and your use of Guisto's high performer flour is a great starting point.  For me, that flour acts a bit more like a lower protein BF than a HG flour.   It also gives a softer crumb than a typical HG flour, so it all falls in line with what you are trying to do here.

hydration - 60% is a good start considering you will also be adding 2-3% oil.
Salt - I would keep the salt at 2% and 2.5% max.  1% tends to be too low and bland for me.  
Sugar - yes, 1-2%
oil - yes, probably 2% considering the flour you are using
yeast - 0.6% or so ADY, IDY, CY your choice

Fermenation time - at least 24-48 hours in fridge.  I wouldn't do an 8-10 hour dough here although I don't think the results will be drastically different one way or the other.  I tend to get better crust coloration if I do at least a 24h cold ferment.  

Mix and mix time - Water, yeast, salt, sugar.  Mix time could be around 8 minutes or so.  I know that sounds a lot but the crumb looks pretty tight here and the oil will prevent over gluten development.  Toss the oil in at the 6 min mark.   Let the dough rest 30m or so out of the mixer covered.  Divide and ball, then into the fridge.    Bake a pie up tomorrow and then another on the following day and let us see the difference.  Tell us which one you like better.  

Be sure to let the dough proof up well before opening and dressing.   Those bubbles on the pizza usually indicate (to me) an early ball stage and a well fermented dough.  You may have to adjust your yeast amount or pull dough out upto 4hrs or so before bake depending on how the dough is coming.

I'm betting that you will get a very similar pizza to what you had on the first or 2nd try.  
That pizza looks good btw.  I like a crisp bottom and a slight crunch to the rim.  Was there any crisp to the rim at all or was it just soft right out of the oven/box?

chau

[dellavecchia]

Thank you Chau! I really appreciate the detailed guidance. I will make my attempt this weekend - your vote of confidence on getting it on the first or second attempt is inspiring.

As for the softness, you can see it the second picture how the crust folded up when he slid it in the box. That is how soft it is coming out of the oven. There is a slight crispness to the edge but not much.

John

[Chicago Bob]

John,
From your description, I think it is a good assumption that this is a same day dough. Might have a bit more sugar in there though.

A little hard to tell from the pics, but...do you think this may be a blend of cheeses...looks like there may be some "fresh" in there, no?

Chau may be right...but what the heck, try a same day.

[dellavecchia]

John,
From your description, I think it is a good assumption that this is a same day dough. Might have a bit more sugar in there though.

A little hard to tell from the pics, but...do you think this may be a blend of cheeses...looks like there may be some "fresh" in there, no?

Chau may be right...but what the heck, try a same day.

Yes, Pino's is most likely a same day dough judging from the taste (and my vague observation) - the crust is slightly bland with a ragged/tight crumb structure. But I think Chau is saying why bother with that aspect if you can get better flavor from a 24 hour cold ferment. What I am really after is the softness and chewiness of this NY style with that perfect cheese melt in an 8 minute bake.

I wonder if they use Grande, as the flavor is really rich and milky. It matches well with the sharpness of the raw sauce. From watching them apply the cheese it all looks white. Maybe they blend in provalone.

Maybe I will do three versions: same day, 24 hours cold, and 48 hours cold.

John

[widespreadpizza]

John,  is it me or do the large bubbles possibly indicate a a cold ish dough ball at opening of the skin,  as if maybe cold femented? -Marc

[dellavecchia]

John,  is it me or do the large bubbles possibly indicate a a cold ish dough ball at opening of the skin,  as if maybe cold femented? -Marc

I am really not sure. My only hint about same day is the taste. But you may be right. I could just ask them if I get there soon.

John

[JD]

I have nothing to contribute as far as a recipe goes, but this post takes me down memory lane. My wife & I also lived a few blocks from Pino's about 8 years ago and we always thought they had the best NY pizza in all of Boston. More importantly though they had a Sicillian slice that would give many NY joints a run for their money.

Thanks for the memory bump, hope you find what you're looking for.

[Chicago Bob]

John,  is it me or do the large bubbles possibly indicate a a cold ish dough ball at opening of the skin,  as if maybe cold femented? -Marc

My local slice joint does a sameday dough...they store dough balls in the refrig prep table and open them cold. Crust looks alot like the one John has posted.

[dellavecchia]

they store dough balls in the refrig prep table and open them cold.

This is the procedure that Pino's uses I believe.

John

[dellavecchia]

I have nothing to contribute as far as a recipe goes, but this post takes me down memory lane.

It is a small world. That area is a great place to live with Washington Square and Coolidge Corner just a few T stops away.

John

[widespreadpizza]

pinos was mentioned on phantom gourmet this am...

[dellavecchia]

Ok, here is my Pino's clone attempt. Thank you to Marc, Chau and Bob for the recipe advice.

Flour (100%):    1091.89 g  |  38.51 oz | 2.41 lbs
Water (60%):    655.14 g  |  23.11 oz | 1.44 lbs
IDY (.5%):    5.46 g | 0.19 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.81 tsp | 0.6 tbsp
Salt (2%):    21.84 g | 0.77 oz | 0.05 lbs | 6.42 tsp | 2.14 tbsp
Oil (3%):    32.76 g | 1.16 oz | 0.07 lbs | 7.28 tsp | 2.43 tbsp
Sugar (1%):    10.92 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.74 tsp | 0.91 tbsp
Total (166.5%):   1818 g | 64.13 oz | 4.01 lbs | TF = N/A
Single Ball:   454.5 g | 16.03 oz | 1 lbs

I did a same day dough first. My High Performer turned out to be old and leaning towards rancid so I used KABF. I think if I had the HP it would have been better. I did an intensive mix (nearing 10 minutes on speed two). Fermented for 4 hours at room temp, then into the fridge for 4 hours. I took them out and let them sit for 30 minutes so I could open them cold. Stone was 525 and the bake time was 7 minutes exactly. I did not achieve the even coloration on the outside crust. I am not sure if that is because I don't have a deck oven or if I need to adjust the recipe/workflow/fermentation.

Taste-wise this was pretty dead on - I was kind of astonished. The dough was soft, slightly crispy but still chewy. I used Dragone whole milk mozz (I think they may used part skim - do most NY pizzerias use part or whole?). Pastene Italian tomatoes. Their tomatoes are slightly more acidic.

Along side the same day dough at room temp, I portioned two other balls then went into the fridge immediately after mixing. I will bake those up at 24 and 48 hours if I have the stamina for two more nights of pizza!

John

[JimmyG]

John,
Your pie looks pretty darn good. Do you think maybe increasing the sugar to 1.5% or 2% would help give you the color in the crust your aiming for? 
Jim

[dellavecchia]

John,
Your pie looks pretty darn good. Do you think maybe increasing the sugar to 1.5% or 2% would help give you the color in the crust your aiming for? 
Jim

I think so. And I think a longer fermentation might help as well.

John