bfguilford does Fazzari

[bfguilford]

After reading through a number of John's threads where he experimented with preferments, bulk fermentation time, etc., I decided that I need to try it.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,15563.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?PHPSESSID=d95265d8869c2b8eaad3675ea3cc471d&/topic,16618.0.html
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,16761.0.html

Never being able to follow any recipe without changing it, I used the following:

Flour (50/50 Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein; KABF Organic Bread Flour, so probably around 1.5% higher protein than the original Fazzari): 100%
Water: 62%
IDY: 0.5%
Salt: 2%
EVOO: 2%
Honey: 2%

Preferment used 33% of flour, 100% hydration, and 20% of IDY. Let it sit at what passes for room temperature around here in the winter (65 degrees) for 16 hours, and then mixed in the rest of the ingredients in the Bosch Compact with the dough hook on speed 1.

Because the final dough temperature was only 65 degrees, I decided to let it sit at 65 degrees for an hour before refrigerating for a 42 hour bulk ferment. Since 12-year-old critic and Mom were off all day and evening, I divided the dough and made one dough ball for a solo bake, and put ti back into the refrigerator for 8 hours (along with the other half of the dough, which I will ball and bake tomorrow night).

2 hours at room temperature (65) moving up to 70 degrees with a little help from a microwaved bean bag. The dough opened really easily (but I need to work on getting it more even next time). With nobody else to dictate toppings, I dressed it with one of my favorite combinations - chopped garlic, shitake mushrooms, roasted yellow pepper, and sauteed kale, along with Jarslberg cheese.

Into the oven on my 3/4" soapstone tile at 535 degrees. I had a small launching issue which caused the dough to bunch up a little. 4 minute bake with the broiler on high all the way through. At 3:30, I lifted the pie from the stone and "domed" it.

It was fabulous. I'm having trouble finding a way to describe this crust. It was beautiful, pillowy and tender inside with a slight crunch to it. The crumb was great in spots (and not so great in others, where I had mishandled the dough when I opened it). The underside was quite charred (which I expected), and there was good top browning. I demolished half of the pie (sighing all the way), and then started to experiment with putting pieces of the second half back in for 15, 30, 45, and 60 seconds to get a little more crunch. The optimum seemed to be 45 seconds. No cold pizza for me tomorrow!

All in all, this was the best pie I have made (the bottle of 1983 Nuits St. Georges probably helped). I believe that it can get better, but what a start. I'll be interested to see what happens with another 24 hours of cold fermentation before balling (tomorrow).

Thanks John!!!

Barry

[mkevenson]

Beautiful crust!!!!!!
WHAT A PIE

Mark

[fazzari]

Very Nice Barry!!!!  Looks like a winner!!
John

[bfguilford]

Thanks Mark.

A huge thanks to you, John, for all your experimenting and help!

Barry

[Chicago Bob]

Excellent Barry...that is a crumb to be proud of, great job! 

[JD]

Looks great Barry.

Are you suggesting it tasted better than your recent Ischia NY Style pizza? Would you attribute the flavor difference was mostly from the preferment?

[bfguilford]

Thanks, Bob. I think the crumb was very good, and to be honest, I'm not sure it looked better than the results I got from the Glutenboy dough or my attempts at NY style with Ischia starter. It was the "mouth feel"/texture that was another level up on both of those.

Are you suggesting it tasted better than your recent Ischia NY Style pizza? Would you attribute the flavor difference was mostly from the preferment?

JD: Thanks. It tasted quite different (and better to me) than the last attempt at the Ischia NY effort, which was really tangy... I like that in a bread, but it didn't work for me in a pizza. This is subtle, but with a level of complexity to the taste, and I would definitely attribute that flavor (and the texture) to the preferment. I don't know if you had a chance to take a look at John's threads, but he talks about his experience in detail with the flavor he gets from the preferment. I can definitely say that it was different (and more to my liking) than either the Ischia pies or the Glutenboy pies that I was baking most often. I still like both of those, but I believe this holds a lot more promise. I'll find out what happens with another 24 hours before balling in just a couple of hours, and will post again.

Barry

[bfguilford]

After another 24 hours of cold fermentation, I baked the second pie from this batch. I dropped the heat down by 10 degrees to try to get a little less char on the bottom (requested by 12-year-old critic), baking at 525. This pie opened a little more easily than last night, with no sign of over-fermentation. Toppings were chopped garlic, part-skim mozzarella (cubed to avoid burning... I do like that trick), and broccoli. Less adventuresome than last night's pie, but 12-year-old critic is less adventuresome than his father.

3 minutes on the soapstone, with the broiler on high, and then "domed" to around 3" below the broiler. I think the top was browned more than last night, which I will attribute to another day of fermentation.

I hung around (like an expectant father  ) watching for reactions from 12-year-old critic and wife (mine... not his). "It's like biting into a pillow" was the consensus. I watched as they devoured the slices (waiting for them to throw me a frickin' bone, as the saying goes), but no dice. It's really unusual for them to eat all of the bones, and I just about had to beg. I tried to reheat slices for 30-45 seconds to see if they liked a little more crunch. Mixed reactions. Finally, proving that good things do come to those who wait (and whine and beg ), I got the last piece, which I put on the stone for a 45 second reheat.

To sum it up, there was a little more flavor after another 24 hours of cold fermentation, the crust browned a little more, and the texture was pretty much the same... fabulous. I need to work on my stretching to get rid of a few bubbles in the pie which burned. This will be a go-to dough for me.

Barry

[deb415611]

those look great Barry

[JD]

Thanks for the update Barry. I recently made a 48hr Ischia NY Style, and the sourness was overwhelming.

I'll have to give John's method a shot as well.

Thanks, Bob. I think the crumb was very good, and to be honest, I'm not sure it looked better than the results I got from the Glutenboy dough or my attempts at NY style with Ischia starter. It was the "mouth feel"/texture that was another level up on both of those.
JD: Thanks. It tasted quite different (and better to me) than the last attempt at the Ischia NY effort, which was really tangy... I like that in a bread, but it didn't work for me in a pizza. This is subtle, but with a level of complexity to the taste, and I would definitely attribute that flavor (and the texture) to the preferment. I don't know if you had a chance to take a look at John's threads, but he talks about his experience in detail with the flavor he gets from the preferment. I can definitely say that it was different (and more to my liking) than either the Ischia pies or the Glutenboy pies that I was baking most often. I still like both of those, but I believe this holds a lot more promise. I'll find out what happens with another 24 hours before balling in just a couple of hours, and will post again.

Barry

[TXCraig1]

Thanks for the update Barry. I recently made a 48hr Ischia NY Style, and the sourness was overwhelming.

I'll have to give John's method a shot as well.

I'm curious to know the formula and method that got overwhelming sourness out of Ischia in 48 hours if you will share?

[JD]

1% of flour weight at 65* for 48 hours. Fermentation was great, nice spring, etc... but very, very sour.


One thing I did differently was the method of proofing my starter. I usually Start with 1/2 cup starter from fridge, mix in 1/2 cup flour & water, let proof for 5 hours until 2-3x volume, and start over using 1/2 cup of newly refreshed starter.

This time, I started with 2 Tbsp of starter, and doubled it every 4 hours or so a total of 3 times. I'm wondering if this change affected the sourness.

Could also have been infected... it was not a pleasant sourness.

I'm curious to know the formula and method that got overwhelming sourness out of Ischia in 48 hours if you will share?

[pythonic]

Barry,

This was also my go to formulation for many months as well.  A 48-72hr cold ferment is definitely the sweet spot for this dough.  Try reballing it 8hrs before as well (increases the oven spring).

Nate

[bfguilford]

Barry,

This was also my go to formulation for many months as well.  A 48-72hr cold ferment is definitely the sweet spot for this dough.  Try reballing it 8hrs before as well (increases the oven spring).

Nate

Thanks for the recommended timing, Nate. Did you bulk ferment for the 48-72 hours, or ball immediately before refrigerating, and then reball 8 hrs before using it?

Also wondering what you dough you have replaced this one with as your go to choice.

Barry

[pythonic]

Thanks for the recommended timing, Nate. Did you bulk ferment for the 48-72 hours, or ball immediately before refrigerating, and then reball 8 hrs before using it?

Also wondering what you dough you have replaced this one with as your go to choice.

Barry

Barry,

No bulk rise and no room temp rise before long cold rise.
This one is very good on flavor but its an extra step and 15hr poolish.  I wanted something faster so now I use Scott123s formulation.

Bread or Hi Gluten Flour - 422g
63.5% - water (85F) - 268g
IDY - 2/3 tsp
1.6% - Sea Salt - 7g
4% - Oil - 17g (I upped this from Scott's 3%)
1% - Sugar - 4g

48-72hr cold rise

Makes two 14in pies with TF of .08

Here is one I made for dinner tonight.

<a href="http://youtu.be/AgLJY4CwABQ" target="_blank" class="aeva_link bbc_link new_win">http://youtu.be/AgLJY4CwABQ</a>

[bfguilford]

Tried something a little different this time, with different results. In an attempt to compensate for how cool the house is, and the effect on the finished dough temperature, I decided to warm the water to 92 degrees before adding it to the poolish (16 hours at room temperature).

Final dough temperature was 70 degrees instead of 65, so I let it go at room temp for 50 minutes (instead of the 2 hours last time). Into the fridge for 72 hours of bulk fermentation. At 48 hours, I noticed that the dough had increased in volume by around 35-40 percent more than the last time during this phase.

Balled 8 hours before baking, and back into the fridge. I noticed that the gluten development was considerably more than last time. 90 minutes at room temp before shaping. The dough was quite pliable, and I was quite preoccupied, so I stretched it too thin in spots, and left too many bubbles in the dough, which came back to haunt me as big burned blisters under the broiler.

Soapstone at 535 degrees. Baked for 4 min 30 sec with broiler going full blast (did I mention that I was preoccupied?). Good crust… pillow-y inside with a nice crunch on the surface. Very tasty with a serious droop. 12-year-old critic said that the cheese pizza was “actually really good, and there was a perfect mix of tomato sauce and cheese, and it was super droopy” (high praise indeed).

Next time? Warm the water to 95 degrees, and bring the poolish and rest of the ingredients up to low-70s) to try to get the finished dough temperature to 75. Drop the room temp bulk rise, and put it directly into the fridge. Also pay more attention to shaping/stretching. Sound about right?

Barry

[Serpentelli]

Barry,

That crumb shot is beautiful, baby. Beautiful. 

And kudos on getting the prepubescent food critic to eat broccoli!

John K

[bfguilford]

Thanks John. Broccoli pies are 12-year-old critic's favorite. Seems like he's always loved broccoli.

Barry

[scott123]

Barry, that looks great.  It looks like the soapstone tile is a resounding success. Are you still preferring the non sourdough to the sourdough? 

Is the Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein flour malted?  It looks a lot like it might not be. You're getting a very unique artisan look to these, so maybe you don't want to mess with the dough too much, but if it isn't malted and you wanted to supplement with some diastatic malt it will give you a more traditional level of browning.

[TXCraig1]

1% of flour weight at 65* for 48 hours. Fermentation was great, nice spring, etc... but very, very sour.


One thing I did differently was the method of proofing my starter. I usually Start with 1/2 cup starter from fridge, mix in 1/2 cup flour & water, let proof for 5 hours until 2-3x volume, and start over using 1/2 cup of newly refreshed starter.

This time, I started with 2 Tbsp of starter, and doubled it every 4 hours or so a total of 3 times. I'm wondering if this change affected the sourness.

Could also have been infected... it was not a pleasant sourness.

I can't explain it. That's pretty much what I do, and I get next to no sourness.