Author Topic: bfguilford does Fazzari  (Read 10508 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 15432
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Craig's Neapolitan Garage
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #25 on: February 26, 2013, 08:06:49 PM »
Come to think of it... I added about 2% sugar to that dough. Never added sugar previously.


If adding sugar makes the dough sour, I think that is a discovery.
Pizza is not bread. Craig's Neapolitan Garage


Offline JD

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1915
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #26 on: February 26, 2013, 09:53:43 PM »
If adding sugar makes the dough sour, I think that is a discovery.


I tend to compare pizza making to homebrewing a little too often. It's not apples to apples, I know. But if you put sugar in homebrew, it ferments much faster because it's a simple sugar as compared to converted starches (complex sugars).

Seems to be the opposite effect from what I read on this forum where if you wanted to do a long cold ferment, it's advised to add sugar to increase available supply for yeast. I'm not going to challenge this advice though.

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #27 on: February 27, 2013, 09:47:20 AM »
Barry, that looks great.  It looks like the soapstone tile is a resounding success. Are you still preferring the non sourdough to the sourdough?  >:D

Is the Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein flour malted?  It looks a lot like it might not be. You're getting a very unique artisan look to these, so maybe you don't want to mess with the dough too much, but if it isn't malted and you wanted to supplement with some diastatic malt it will give you a more traditional level of browning.

Oh Scott... nice to see you giving it a little twist, my friend ;D.

The soapstone is giving me really good results at half the weight of the steel. I haven't made a sourdough NY pie for around a month now, but will probably keep it in the rotation. I like the taste, crumb, and mouth feel that they produce, too (with the exception of the last attempt that I messed up by not getting an accurate temperature reading on during fermentation).

The High Mountain High Protein flour is not malted. I'm wondering (given the 2 percent honey in the mix) how you see adding malt would change the look of the pie (and at what quantity). Are we talking about the undercrust, which may look artisan to some people, but looks like it could use a little work to me. I had put that down to my use of a superpeel (I put the stretched skin on the superpeel to dress it, and then use it to launch the pie).

Barry,how close to the broiler do you do your pies? By the way the pies are beautiful. Patrick

Thanks Patrick. The distance is 4-3/4 inches. I also lift the pie after around 3 minutes to around 3 inches from the broiler if I see the bottom browning moving too much faster than the top.

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #28 on: February 27, 2013, 10:02:48 AM »
Great looking pies Barry...love the broccoli pie  :chef:
I think the use of malted flours or added sugar in the dough may accelerate fermentation, producing excess sourness. I activated the Ischia starter last week. In the first dough I used 80% KABF and 20% Caputo Pizzeria with 1.8% starter and 1% sugar. After 24 hours at 62F the dough more than doubled. After another 12 hours in balls, the dough was very sour and over fermented. The second batch was 100% Caputo with 1% sugar and 1.8% starter. (same hydration/water temp and oil content) After 24 hours there wasn't much rise at all and the dough smelled slightly sweet/nutty. Balled and left for another 19 hours. The flavor was excellent with only a slight background hint of sour.

Reading over Barry's other topic it would seem similar things may have occurred. In a few days I'll run them side by side to be a bit more accurate   ;)

-Peter

Thanks Peter. What you refer to in my NY sourdough thread was caused by an error on my part. I had an inaccurate reading of the temperature of the cooler where I fermented the dough. While I was "only" off by 2 degrees, that was enough to have an extra 10-12 hours of fermentation, which I would suggest is what may have caused the sourness in that particular batch of dough. Or, to put it another way, I should have used 1/3 less starter for that length/temperature fermentation, according to Craig's predictive model (5% vs 7.5%).

However, my use (and knowledge) of sourdough starter in pizza is very limited (I was experimenting to see if I could a more complex tasting and flavorful dough... I did that for the bakes before the fateful sour tasting one), so I think I'll bow out of that part of this thread. Now, if you want to talk about sourdough bread...

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #29 on: March 01, 2013, 02:49:47 PM »
Barry,

Would you characterize this dough here as having an egg shell thin crisp crust that gives way to the "pillow" that 12 year old critic mentioned?

What would you suggest for an all room temp ferment...24 hr....48hr. ? And when to ball, if you please.
Thank you!

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #30 on: March 01, 2013, 03:07:16 PM »
Would you characterize this dough here as having an egg shell thin crisp crust that gives way to the "pillow" that 12 year old critic mentioned?

That's the way I would describe it.

What would you suggest for an all room temp ferment...24 hr....48hr. ? And when to ball, if you please.
Thank you!

I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on that, Bob. I don't have the experience to back up what would be a SWAG. John (Fazzari) might have tried something like that (he's a great experimenter), so you might want to check in with him. I'm guessing that room temp ferments would need a lot less yeast. I'm also guessing that 24 hours might change the flavor profile (SWAG... the yeast might not digest as much of the honey... or maybe more of it... or maybe none of the above :-[).

When to ball... I used 8 hours before bake this time, and 10 hours before bake last time, and both gave very good results. I think John mentioned 6 hours in one of his threads (the ones I linked to in the first post), and I plan to try that next time (in around 10 days). I'll post how that goes if I do it.

Barry

Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12473
  • Location: Durham,NC
  • Easy peazzy
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #31 on: March 01, 2013, 03:31:55 PM »
Thanks Barry....I already bug John too much as it is.  :-[
Don't think I'm going to use the honey anyways so I'll just give a 24 room rise a go and see what happens.

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #32 on: March 01, 2013, 05:42:46 PM »
OK Bob. Let us know how it goes.

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2013, 09:13:04 PM »
I can't believe that it has been a month since my last bake. Things have been pretty crazy around here.

For tonight's bake, I went with the usual 1/3 flour poolish at 100% hydration for 16 hours. I then raised the temperature of the water that I added to 94 degrees, and ended up with a finished dough temperature of 71.8 degrees. This time, I didn't leave it out at our 64 degree room temperature at all, since I had to go out right away. Into the fridge in bulk for 48 hours, then balled 7 hours before bake. Back into the fridge for 5 hours, then out a (cool) room temperature for 2 hours.

Man, am I out of practice as far as dough handling goes. 4:30 bake at 550 degrees, with the broiler on high the whole time (the soapstone was too low in the oven), with the last 1:30 lifted off the stone. The first pie ended up being paper thin in the middle half of the pie (inner 7 inches in diameter), and ended up really crispy with burnt patches and not very pleasant in mouth feel.

I adjusted my stretching technique on the second one, and ended up with a very nice pie. 4:30 bake again, and again lifted the pie up for the last 1:30. What a difference! Once again, the crust had a slight crunch to it, with a wonderful pillow-y crumb. It was like biting into a tasty cloud. I've gotten into the habit of reheating a slice or two on the stone for a minute. It gives the bottom an even better eggshell crunch, without messing up the pillow-y mouth feel at all.

I'm really liking this style. Photos of second pie only (the first one was too embarrassing :-[).

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2013, 02:09:27 AM »
Barry,
That's a beautyyy!!!!

John

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2013, 09:13:06 AM »
Barry,
That's a beautyyy!!!!

John

Thanks, John. I'm really grateful to be benefiting from your experimenting and great work. A question for you. Have you ever tried to incorporate any whole grains into your dough? I'm thinking of trying to use around 25% white whole wheat flour in a future bake.

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2013, 09:57:59 PM »
Thanks, John. I'm really grateful to be benefiting from your experimenting and great work. A question for you. Have you ever tried to incorporate any whole grains into your dough? I'm thinking of trying to use around 25% white whole wheat flour in a future bake.

Barry
I have never tried anything like what you want to do, but I anxiously await to see the results of any experiment you might try!!!!

John

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #37 on: May 06, 2013, 02:23:35 PM »
Well, it took a while, but I finally tried to use 25% white whole wheat flour in this dough. I increased the hydration by 1% to compensate (a guess).

Flour (25% KA Organic White Whole Wheat; 37.5% each of Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein and KABF Organic Bread Flour
Water: 63%
IDY: 0.5%
Salt: 2%
EVOO: 2%
Honey: 2%

Due to forgetfulness/miscalculation/age, I let the poolish do for 18 hours (2 hours longer than I normally aim for). Bulk fermented in the fridge for 70 hours, then balled and returned to fridge for 7 hours, followed by 2 hours at room temperature (70 degrees... must be springtime in CT).

Normal toppings (gave 12-year old critic his choice), with garlic, basil, part-skim mozz, EVOO on both pies - broccoli on the first; sliced tomato on the second. Baked both for 4:15 with broiler on low for 1:00 and high for 3:15, lifting the pies off the soapstone at the 3 minute mark.

Looked and tasted around normal for my efforts with this style. I think the mouth feel might have been a little more on the "bread-y" side, but it was very tender inside a minimally crunchy exterior. I found that putting a couple of slices back into the oven for 45 seconds after around 5 minutes of cooling gave it a little more crunch (to my liking, but not to the liking of 12-year old critic).

I don't think I would increase the amount of white whole wheat beyond 25%, but I'll probably try this again (just to trick myself into thinking that it's better for us :angel:).

Barry
« Last Edit: May 06, 2013, 02:25:34 PM by bfguilford »
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #38 on: May 06, 2013, 06:05:50 PM »
Barry,

Beautiful job on your pizzas!  8)  They sure look tasty.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline MightyPizzaOven

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1254
  • Location: Houston, TX
    • Mighty Pizza Oven .com
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #39 on: May 06, 2013, 06:42:59 PM »
Amazing looking pies Barry.
Bert

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2013, 09:56:24 AM »
Thanks, Norma and Bert. I was a little surprised that the white whole wheat didn't give it a little more flavor. I may try something else in the future... just don't know what yet (Type 85? Kamut? Spelt? Add a little ground flax?). Norma... I think I'm catching whatever you've got  :-D.

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 23838
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #41 on: May 07, 2013, 09:27:59 PM »
I may try something else in the future... just don't know what yet (Type 85? Kamut? Spelt? Add a little ground flax?). Norma... I think I'm catching whatever you've got  :-D.

Barry

Barry,

I had to chuckle when you said you might be catching whatever I have.  I sure hope your experiments take you somewhere you want to go. ;D  I think I have tried whole wheat at least one time.

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!


Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2013, 08:48:21 PM »
Decreased the white whole wheat flour in this dough to 15 %, upped the hydration by 1% and changed the workflow a bit.

Flour (15% KA Organic White Whole Wheat; 42.5% each of Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein and KABF Organic Bread Flour
Water: 64%
IDY: 0.5%
Salt: 2%
EVOO: 2%
Honey: 2%

I used all the white whole wheat flour in the poolish and left it at 65 degree (slightly cooler) room temperature for 16 hours:
100 g KA White Whole Wheat
60 g Hi Mountain/High Protein
60 g KABF

Bulk fermented in the fridge for 70 hours, then balled and returned to fridge for 6 hours, followed by 3 hours at room temperature (65 degrees... so much for springtime in CT).

First one was sliced tomato, part-skim cubed mozzarella and part-skim Trader Joe's havarti cheese (first time using havarti, due to two unopened packages of part-skim mozz showing mold, despite the fact that they had 10 and 14 weeks left on their best before dates... get thee back to the store from whence you came, knaves!). Half had Trader Joe's pesto as a base; half was just minced garlic and dried basil. No photos. 12-rear-old critic preferred no pesto (and he LOVES pesto on his pasta); wife and I preferred with pesto.

Second pie was a white broccoli, with same cheese combo, minced garlic and dried basil (c'mon 12-year-old critic... time to branch out a bit, kiddo). Sprayed both liberally with EVOO after putting on the cheese.

Baked for 4:00 with broiler on high all the way, lifting the pies off the soapstone at the 3 minute mark.

Very tender inside a minimally crunchy exterior. Less bread-y mouth feel than when using 25 percent KA White Whole wheat, and very tasty. Once again, I found that putting a couple of slices back into the oven for 45 seconds after around 5 minutes of cooling gave it a little more crunch.

Next time... I may add around 1-2 percent ground flax seed for flavor and fiber ::).

Barry
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 07:05:35 PM by bfguilford »
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2013, 08:42:07 PM »
It's been a while. Tried something a little different.

Decreased the white whole wheat flour in this dough to 12.5 %, and kept the hydration at 64%.

Flour (12.5% KA Organic White Whole Wheat; 43.75% each of Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein and KABF Organic Bread Flour
Water: 64%
IDY: 0.5%
Salt: 2%
EVOO: 2%
Honey: 2%
Ground flax seed (golden): 0.5%

I used all the white whole wheat flour in the poolish again, and left it at 75 degree room temperature for 16 hours. Bulk fermented in the fridge for 72 hours, then balled and returned to fridge for 6 hours, followed by 2 hours at room temperature.

First one was sliced tomato, sauteed garlic scapes and basil from our garden (first time using anything out of the garden this year), and the star of the show... peppadew peppers (I found a mixture of green, red and yellow peppers at the olive bar at te grocery store... left the green ones there), part-skim cubed mozzarella and part-skim Trader Joe's havarti. I love the taste of the peppadews - just the right mixture of mildly hot and sweet. Second pie... skipped the tomatoes (peppadews, sauteed garlic scapes and basil). Topping-wise, this was my favorite pie in a long time... maybe ever. Crust was light and fluffy with a nice eggshell crunch to it. Not sure if the ground golden flax seed made much of a difference, but the bottom may have browned a little more evenly.

12-year-old critic is risking banishment from the table. When I asked him what he thought of the crust, he said "It's too light and fluffy, Dad. Can you make it more dense next time?" I just about choked, then explained that my friends on pizzamaking.com take pride in this kind of crust. He wasn't impressed. Anybody want a soon to be 13-year-old kid?!?  ::) Sigh...

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2013, 08:18:20 AM »
Barry
Your pizzas are looking excellent!!!!!  Now may I inject a thought?  If you've read a lot of stuff from different people here, you will know that baking at high temps promotes better oven spring, while baking at cooler temps will give you a crisper, more tender crust.  The reason I love the method you are trying, is that the reballing procedure takes care of the oven spring issue almost by itself, allowing one to bake a beautiful pizza in the home oven at normal temps.  Would you mind trying an experiment for yourself.....just once, forget about baking your pizza as fast as you can, and let it bake until the bottom is golden brown....I would just love to know what you think

John

Offline bfguilford

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 620
  • Location: Near New Haven, CT
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2013, 08:47:58 AM »
Barry
Your pizzas are looking excellent!!!!!  Now may I inject a thought?  If you've read a lot of stuff from different people here, you will know that baking at high temps promotes better oven spring, while baking at cooler temps will give you a crisper, more tender crust.  The reason I love the method you are trying, is that the reballing procedure takes care of the oven spring issue almost by itself, allowing one to bake a beautiful pizza in the home oven at normal temps.  Would you mind trying an experiment for yourself.....just once, forget about baking your pizza as fast as you can, and let it bake until the bottom is golden brown....I would just love to know what you think

John

Thanks John. Your thoughts are ALWAYS welcomed.

I actually backed off the temperature to 525 degrees this time and left the pizza on the soapstone for the full 4 minutes. The bottom was a little more golden that the photo would lead you to believe (bad lighting), but nowhere near golden brown. Another thought is that the uneven browning may have something to do with me launching my pies with a "Super Peel" with its cloth "conveyer belt" (www.superpeel.com). One of these days, I'll make the change to a regular peel.

Next time, I'll lower it even more and aim for 5-ish minutes (Scott... please forgive me :-[) and not blast it with the broiler quite so early (I use the broiler on high for the full 4 minutes now). What temperature would you suggest?

Barry
Light travels faster than sound. That's why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2013, 11:01:23 AM »
Barry
In a perfect pizza world, the top and bottom of the pizza are done at exactly the same time.  Given that we all use different ovens and oven set ups, one has to experiment with what he has.  For some reason my home oven can get my quarry tiles up to 620 degrees if I want it too.  I have found that by putting a layer of quarry tile on the very top rack of my oven, I am creating an oven inside my oven....that is, I have never had to use my broiler when baking pizza.  Having said that, I've baked many at 560 to 575 degrees, just to see if I could.  There seems to be enough heat in top of the oven to bake the top beautifully.
As for your mention of Scott, he's probably forgotten more things than I will possibly ever know.  In his writings, he says he would rather have a hotter oven to get oven spring, than a cooler one to get crispness (sorry, if I mistate...but that is close!!).   All I'm saying is, the method takes care of the oven spring issue, now you get a bonus because you can bake the bottom to perfection also.  So, it is possible for this pizza to have a crisp tender bottom with the cloud like qualities above that....your son might even like it!!  If I were going to experiment in your oven, I'd start it all the way up.....without the boiler, just to see what happens......if it fails, it's still good eats!!!

John

Offline JD

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1915
  • Location: Long Island, NY
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2013, 01:27:30 PM »
  All I'm saying is, the method takes care of the oven spring issue, now you get a bonus because you can bake the bottom to perfection also.  So, it is possible for this pizza to have a crisp tender bottom with the cloud like qualities above that....your son might even like it!!  If I were going to experiment in your oven, I'd start it all the way up.....without the boiler, just to see what happens......if it fails, it's still good eats!!!
John

Pizza is so subjective. I love a 90s Neapolitan, but for NY style I prefer 7 minutes over 4. My goal is to recreate pizza I grew up with, and I've been very pleased.   

I use 1/2" steel and apply the reball technique as suggested by Fazzari (actually first learned about it from this thread I believe so thanks to you both!) The combination of steel & reballing allows me to do my lower temp 7 minute bake with little to no impact on spring. From what I've seen with your soapstone experiments, you should expect the same if you're willing to go the full 7 minutes. 5 is a good start though.

Scott is passionate about true early NY style, and his advice is excellent if that is your goal. But experimenting & trying new styles can be fun, so I second the notion of turning your oven down at least once.

Offline jeffereynelson

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1278
  • Location: Los Angeles
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2013, 01:47:36 PM »
Now may I inject a thought?  If you've read a lot of stuff from different people here, you will know that baking at high temps promotes better oven spring, while baking at cooler temps will give you a crisper, more tender crust. 

I personally have never felt that baking a cooler temps promotes a more tender crust. The most tender crusts I have ever had are baked at 1000F. The toughest crusts I have ever had are baked slow and cool. IE little caesars.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1003
Re: bfguilford does Fazzari
« Reply #49 on: June 26, 2013, 01:28:24 PM »
What temperature would you suggest?

Barry
Barry
Just to be clear (and this is my opinion only!).  I would bake my pizza in as hot an oven as it would take for the top and bottom to be  done as close to the same time as possible.  In your oven, if this means you must use your broiler, than use it, but don't let the use of the broiler leave the bottom underbaked.  That is what I meant by a cooler oven.  Again, my opinion only.....continue making excellent pizzas!!

John