bfguilford does Fazzari

[PetersPizza]

Great looking pies Barry...love the broccoli pie 

I can't explain it. That's pretty much what I do, and I get next to no sourness.

I think the use of malted flours or added sugar in the dough may accelerate fermentation, producing excess sourness. I activated the Ischia starter last week. In the first dough I used 80% KABF and 20% Caputo Pizzeria with 1.8% starter and 1% sugar. After 24 hours at 62F the dough more than doubled. After another 12 hours in balls, the dough was very sour and over fermented. The second batch was 100% Caputo with 1% sugar and 1.8% starter. (same hydration/water temp and oil content) After 24 hours there wasn't much rise at all and the dough smelled slightly sweet/nutty. Balled and left for another 19 hours. The flavor was excellent with only a slight background hint of sour.

Reading over Barry's other topic it would seem similar things may have occurred. In a few days I'll run them side by side to be a bit more accurate   

-Peter

[patnx2]

Barry,how close to the broiler do you do your pies? By the way the pies are beautiful. Patrick

[JD]

For the dough referenced in this thread, I used GMBFB flour (which I believe does not have any malted flour).

I've subsequently done a 24 hour fridge temp + 24 hour warm ferment at 8%, and the sourness was perfect. I've also done straight 24hr ferment with no fridge time around 8% and the sourness was barely noticeable. That 48 hour ferment was pretty bad.


Has anyone experienced an "infected" batch of dough? The dough had a similar smell to an infected homebrew.

Great looking pies Barry...love the broccoli pie 
I think the use of malted flours or added sugar in the dough may accelerate fermentation, producing excess sourness. I activated the Ischia starter last week. In the first dough I used 80% KABF and 20% Caputo Pizzeria with 1.8% starter and 1% sugar. After 24 hours at 62F the dough more than doubled. After another 12 hours in balls, the dough was very sour and over fermented. The second batch was 100% Caputo with 1% sugar and 1.8% starter. (same hydration/water temp and oil content) After 24 hours there wasn't much rise at all and the dough smelled slightly sweet/nutty. Balled and left for another 19 hours. The flavor was excellent with only a slight background hint of sour.

Reading over Barry's other topic it would seem similar things may have occurred. In a few days I'll run them side by side to be a bit more accurate   

-Peter

[TXCraig1]

I think the use of malted flours or added sugar in the dough may accelerate fermentation, producing excess sourness. I activated the Ischia starter last week. In the first dough I used 80% KABF and 20% Caputo Pizzeria with 1.8% starter and 1% sugar. After 24 hours at 62F the dough more than doubled. After another 12 hours in balls, the dough was very sour and over fermented. The second batch was 100% Caputo with 1% sugar and 1.8% starter. (same hydration/water temp and oil content) After 24 hours there wasn't much rise at all and the dough smelled slightly sweet/nutty. Balled and left for another 19 hours. The flavor was excellent with only a slight background hint of sour.

1.8% starter doubling after 24 hours @ 62F is on the order of 2X as fast as I would expect. It's hard for me to understand how 1% sugar or malted flour could cause this. I've made a lot of dough with KAAP, KABF, and some blends w/ Caputo (never any added sugar), and I experienced rise times and sourness (that is to say no sourness to speak of) comparable to 100% Caputo. I'd be curious to know if you could consistently get sourness with the KABF+sugar formulation or if it was a one off thing.

[JD]

Come to think of it... I added about 2% sugar to that dough. Never added sugar previously.

1.8% starter doubling after 24 hours @ 62F is on the order of 2X as fast as I would expect. It's hard for me to understand how 1% sugar or malted flour could cause this. I've made a lot of dough with KAAP, KABF, and some blends w/ Caputo (never any added sugar), and I experienced rise times and sourness (that is to say no sourness to speak of) comparable to 100% Caputo. I'd be curious to know if you could consistently get sourness with the KABF+sugar formulation or if it was a one off thing.

[TXCraig1]

Come to think of it... I added about 2% sugar to that dough. Never added sugar previously.

If adding sugar makes the dough sour, I think that is a discovery.

[JD]

If adding sugar makes the dough sour, I think that is a discovery.

I tend to compare pizza making to homebrewing a little too often. It's not apples to apples, I know. But if you put sugar in homebrew, it ferments much faster because it's a simple sugar as compared to converted starches (complex sugars).

Seems to be the opposite effect from what I read on this forum where if you wanted to do a long cold ferment, it's advised to add sugar to increase available supply for yeast. I'm not going to challenge this advice though.

[bfguilford]

Barry, that looks great.  It looks like the soapstone tile is a resounding success. Are you still preferring the non sourdough to the sourdough? 

Is the Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein flour malted?  It looks a lot like it might not be. You're getting a very unique artisan look to these, so maybe you don't want to mess with the dough too much, but if it isn't malted and you wanted to supplement with some diastatic malt it will give you a more traditional level of browning.

Oh Scott... nice to see you giving it a little twist, my friend .

The soapstone is giving me really good results at half the weight of the steel. I haven't made a sourdough NY pie for around a month now, but will probably keep it in the rotation. I like the taste, crumb, and mouth feel that they produce, too (with the exception of the last attempt that I messed up by not getting an accurate temperature reading on during fermentation).

The High Mountain High Protein flour is not malted. I'm wondering (given the 2 percent honey in the mix) how you see adding malt would change the look of the pie (and at what quantity). Are we talking about the undercrust, which may look artisan to some people, but looks like it could use a little work to me. I had put that down to my use of a superpeel (I put the stretched skin on the superpeel to dress it, and then use it to launch the pie).

Barry,how close to the broiler do you do your pies? By the way the pies are beautiful. Patrick

Thanks Patrick. The distance is 4-3/4 inches. I also lift the pie after around 3 minutes to around 3 inches from the broiler if I see the bottom browning moving too much faster than the top.

Barry

[bfguilford]

Great looking pies Barry...love the broccoli pie 
I think the use of malted flours or added sugar in the dough may accelerate fermentation, producing excess sourness. I activated the Ischia starter last week. In the first dough I used 80% KABF and 20% Caputo Pizzeria with 1.8% starter and 1% sugar. After 24 hours at 62F the dough more than doubled. After another 12 hours in balls, the dough was very sour and over fermented. The second batch was 100% Caputo with 1% sugar and 1.8% starter. (same hydration/water temp and oil content) After 24 hours there wasn't much rise at all and the dough smelled slightly sweet/nutty. Balled and left for another 19 hours. The flavor was excellent with only a slight background hint of sour.

Reading over Barry's other topic it would seem similar things may have occurred. In a few days I'll run them side by side to be a bit more accurate   

-Peter

Thanks Peter. What you refer to in my NY sourdough thread was caused by an error on my part. I had an inaccurate reading of the temperature of the cooler where I fermented the dough. While I was "only" off by 2 degrees, that was enough to have an extra 10-12 hours of fermentation, which I would suggest is what may have caused the sourness in that particular batch of dough. Or, to put it another way, I should have used 1/3 less starter for that length/temperature fermentation, according to Craig's predictive model (5% vs 7.5%).

However, my use (and knowledge) of sourdough starter in pizza is very limited (I was experimenting to see if I could a more complex tasting and flavorful dough... I did that for the bakes before the fateful sour tasting one), so I think I'll bow out of that part of this thread. Now, if you want to talk about sourdough bread...

Barry

[Chicago Bob]

Barry,

Would you characterize this dough here as having an egg shell thin crisp crust that gives way to the "pillow" that 12 year old critic mentioned?

What would you suggest for an all room temp ferment...24 hr....48hr. ? And when to ball, if you please.
Thank you!

Bob

[bfguilford]

Would you characterize this dough here as having an egg shell thin crisp crust that gives way to the "pillow" that 12 year old critic mentioned?

That's the way I would describe it.

What would you suggest for an all room temp ferment...24 hr....48hr. ? And when to ball, if you please.
Thank you!

I wouldn't want to hazard a guess on that, Bob. I don't have the experience to back up what would be a SWAG. John (Fazzari) might have tried something like that (he's a great experimenter), so you might want to check in with him. I'm guessing that room temp ferments would need a lot less yeast. I'm also guessing that 24 hours might change the flavor profile (SWAG... the yeast might not digest as much of the honey... or maybe more of it... or maybe none of the above ).

When to ball... I used 8 hours before bake this time, and 10 hours before bake last time, and both gave very good results. I think John mentioned 6 hours in one of his threads (the ones I linked to in the first post), and I plan to try that next time (in around 10 days). I'll post how that goes if I do it.

Barry

[Chicago Bob]

Thanks Barry....I already bug John too much as it is. 
Don't think I'm going to use the honey anyways so I'll just give a 24 room rise a go and see what happens.

Bob

[bfguilford]

OK Bob. Let us know how it goes.

Barry

[bfguilford]

I can't believe that it has been a month since my last bake. Things have been pretty crazy around here.

For tonight's bake, I went with the usual 1/3 flour poolish at 100% hydration for 16 hours. I then raised the temperature of the water that I added to 94 degrees, and ended up with a finished dough temperature of 71.8 degrees. This time, I didn't leave it out at our 64 degree room temperature at all, since I had to go out right away. Into the fridge in bulk for 48 hours, then balled 7 hours before bake. Back into the fridge for 5 hours, then out a (cool) room temperature for 2 hours.

Man, am I out of practice as far as dough handling goes. 4:30 bake at 550 degrees, with the broiler on high the whole time (the soapstone was too low in the oven), with the last 1:30 lifted off the stone. The first pie ended up being paper thin in the middle half of the pie (inner 7 inches in diameter), and ended up really crispy with burnt patches and not very pleasant in mouth feel.

I adjusted my stretching technique on the second one, and ended up with a very nice pie. 4:30 bake again, and again lifted the pie up for the last 1:30. What a difference! Once again, the crust had a slight crunch to it, with a wonderful pillow-y crumb. It was like biting into a tasty cloud. I've gotten into the habit of reheating a slice or two on the stone for a minute. It gives the bottom an even better eggshell crunch, without messing up the pillow-y mouth feel at all.

I'm really liking this style. Photos of second pie only (the first one was too embarrassing ).

Barry

[fazzari]

Barry,
That's a beautyyy!!!!

John

[bfguilford]

Barry,
That's a beautyyy!!!!

John

Thanks, John. I'm really grateful to be benefiting from your experimenting and great work. A question for you. Have you ever tried to incorporate any whole grains into your dough? I'm thinking of trying to use around 25% white whole wheat flour in a future bake.

Barry

[fazzari]

Thanks, John. I'm really grateful to be benefiting from your experimenting and great work. A question for you. Have you ever tried to incorporate any whole grains into your dough? I'm thinking of trying to use around 25% white whole wheat flour in a future bake.

Barry

I have never tried anything like what you want to do, but I anxiously await to see the results of any experiment you might try!!!!

John

[bfguilford]

Well, it took a while, but I finally tried to use 25% white whole wheat flour in this dough. I increased the hydration by 1% to compensate (a guess).

Flour (25% KA Organic White Whole Wheat; 37.5% each of Central Milling Organic High Mountain High Protein and KABF Organic Bread Flour
Water: 63%
IDY: 0.5%
Salt: 2%
EVOO: 2%
Honey: 2%

Due to forgetfulness/miscalculation/age, I let the poolish do for 18 hours (2 hours longer than I normally aim for). Bulk fermented in the fridge for 70 hours, then balled and returned to fridge for 7 hours, followed by 2 hours at room temperature (70 degrees... must be springtime in CT).

Normal toppings (gave 12-year old critic his choice), with garlic, basil, part-skim mozz, EVOO on both pies - broccoli on the first; sliced tomato on the second. Baked both for 4:15 with broiler on low for 1:00 and high for 3:15, lifting the pies off the soapstone at the 3 minute mark.

Looked and tasted around normal for my efforts with this style. I think the mouth feel might have been a little more on the "bread-y" side, but it was very tender inside a minimally crunchy exterior. I found that putting a couple of slices back into the oven for 45 seconds after around 5 minutes of cooling gave it a little more crunch (to my liking, but not to the liking of 12-year old critic).

I don't think I would increase the amount of white whole wheat beyond 25%, but I'll probably try this again (just to trick myself into thinking that it's better for us ).

Barry

[norma427]

Barry,

Beautiful job on your pizzas!    They sure look tasty.

Norma

[MightyPizzaOven]

Amazing looking pies Barry.