Yeast amount

[sb 44 champs]

I will be making dough tonite for a cook on Sunday.
Would .25% IDY be sufficient or would I need to increase the amount.

Using Peter Pan Bread Flour.

Here's one formula for 2 dough balls
Flour (100%):    314.62 g  |  11.1 oz | 0.69 lbs
Water (59%):    185.62 g  |  6.55 oz | 0.41 lbs
IDY (.25%):    0.79 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.26 tsp | 0.09 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.29 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.13 tsp | 0.38 tbsp
Oil (6%):    18.88 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.19 tsp | 1.4 tbsp
Sugar (6%):    18.88 g | 0.67 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.73 tsp | 1.58 tbsp
Total (173.25%):   545.07 g | 19.23 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.085
Single Ball:   272.54 g | 9.61 oz | 0.6 lbs

Here's the second formula for 2 dough balls
Flour (100%):    304.09 g  |  10.73 oz | 0.67 lbs
Water (65%):    197.66 g  |  6.97 oz | 0.44 lbs
IDY (.25%):    0.76 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.25 tsp | 0.08 tbsp
Salt (2%):    6.08 g | 0.21 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.09 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
Oil (6%):    18.25 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.05 tsp | 1.35 tbsp
Sugar (6%):    18.25 g | 0.64 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.58 tsp | 1.53 tbsp
Total (179.25%):   545.07 g | 19.23 oz | 1.2 lbs | TF = 0.085
Single Ball:   272.54 g | 9.61 oz | 0.6 lbs

[Chicago Bob]

Should be fine in your frig sb...looks like a lot of sugar though.
what is your oven temp?

[sb 44 champs]

Max oven temp is 550.

[Chicago Bob]

Where is this recipe from sb? Is this something new you are trying...your oil and sugar amounts are at least twice the traditional amounts. You are making NY style, correct? Off a peel onto a preheated stone...

[Pete-zza]

Bob,

I would characterize the dough formulations as American style but with NY style crust thickness.

Peter

[Chicago Bob]

Bob,

I would characterize the dough formulations as American style but with NY style crust thickness.

Peter

Thanks Peter..I noticed sb's .08 TF and is why I asked what he is trying to achive.
It's no secret that you have great experience with developing successful American style pizza doughs..during all of your trials did you ever attempt a minimal TF with your American doughs. I've often wonder how something such as this might turn out.
Does sb have too much sugar for his extended scenario(4 1/2 days) ?

[sb 44 champs]

Bob & Peter, thanks for the responses.
Peter is correct in that I am trying to achieve an american crust with a NY thickness. I increased the sugar in an attempt to get more color in the crust. I wanted to use a local product, cane syrup, but I did not have any on hand. I prefer a Neopolitan style pizza but it's impossible with my set up.
As for the oil amt, I'm hoping it will aid in the elasticity factor as I've been having a difficult time being able to stretch my dough to 12-14". I've allowed rest periods but nothing seems to work. I keep changing the formula in an attempt to get the right ingredient and  amount for max flavor and worability. It's been a work in progress to say the least.
At least my 3 year old helper enjoys the pizza I make regardless of how they look, so that helps to ease the frustration.
Eddie

[Pete-zza]

Thanks Peter..I noticed sb's .08 TF and is why I asked what he is trying to achive.
It's no secret that you have great experience with developing successful American style pizza doughs..during all of your trials did you ever attempt a minimal TF with your American doughs. I've often wonder how something such as this might turn out.
Does sb have too much sugar for his extended scenario(4 1/2 days) ?

Bob,

Some time ago, I made "thin" versions of an American style that was popularized by member Randy, and reported my results in the thread at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15310.html#msg15310. The first post in that thread is Randy's original American recipe that I converted to baker's percent format. I lowered the thickness factor of that recipe for my "thin" versions, but as low as I went with the thickness factor was 0.10. You can see an example of such use at Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1707.msg15953.html#msg15953.

I agree with you that Eddie is using a lot of sugar. He is using 6%. Theoretically, once you get above about 5% sugar, it can inhibit yeast performance. This is a topic that is discussed under Osmotic Pressure at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_One.htm#Osmotic Pressure. As noted in that same section, salt can also adversely affect yeast performance once it gets above about 1.5%. In Randy's case, he used total sugars at 9.8% and salt at 3.3%. However, his yeast (IDY) was at 1.6%. That amount undoubtedly gave him a big cushion against the type of damage that the high sugar and salt levels could inflict on his dough.

It is hard to say whether Eddie is using enough yeast. But if he is going out to five days of cold fermentation, it is possible that his dough will survive the osmotic pressure effects of the sugar and salt levels he is using. It is hard to know for sure because a lot of things can happen to a dough over five days, especially or a dough that is untested. But normally, you don't need 6% sugar to get decent crust coloration.

I will be interested in Eddie's result.

Peter

[sb 44 champs]

The dough was made last night. I stayed with the formula noted and will report the results. After reading the posts and thinking, I probably should have used a bit more yeast and a little less sugar. But since I am baking in a home oven at 550 and on a steel plate, I don't think that burning will be an issue. At least I hope it is not an issue.  I have thought about it but wanted to see if the additional sugar will aid in crust color.
Eddie

[Pete-zza]

Eddie,

scott123 may better advise you on this, but if you are using 6% sugar and a steel plate at 550 degrees F, there is a likelihood that you will experience a lot of bottom crust browning and maybe even burning. That is one of the reasons why I used pizza screens with my American style doughs with a lot of sugar. So, you may want to closely monitor the bottom color developement.

Peter

[sb 44 champs]

Thanks Peter, will do.
I may cut back on the temp a bit, maybe 450-475.

[JD]

It depends on what you're after but I can confirm with first hand experience that the pie will start to burn as soon as 4 minutes at 550*. As Peter says, the sugar will likely accelerate that effect.

I turned my oven down to 440* last night and achieved a 7 minute bake (using the broiler for top color for the last 3 minutes). I'm more fond of the 7 minute pie than the 4 minute since that's what I grew up on, plus no burning or high-contrast of the undercrust. Very happy with it.

Thanks Peter, will do.
I may cut back on the temp a bit, maybe 450-475.

[sb 44 champs]

It depends on what you're after but I can confirm with first hand experience that the pie will start to burn as soon as 4 minutes at 550*. As Peter says, the sugar will likely accelerate that effect.

I turned my oven down to 440* last night and achieved a 7 minute bake (using the broiler for top color for the last 3 minutes). I'm more fond of the 7 minute pie than the 4 minute since that's what I grew up on, plus no burning or high-contrast of the undercrust. Very happy with it.

After reading the posts, I will cut down the oven temp to 450 and use the broiler for top crust color,if needed. Definitely don't want to eat burnt bottom crust.

[JD]

Again it all depends on what you're after... Scott's preference (along with many others) is a 4 minute pie, my preference is a bit more time at lower temperature. Either way you'll have to use a broiler to get good top color. Your choice of a 4 or 7 min pie will result in a big difference in spring, crispiness, and texture. If you had a picture of what you're after, I think the experts could point you in a better direction than I can.

[sb 44 champs]

I would love to have a 90 sec pie but gave up on that until the day comes that I can get a WFO.
For now, I'm content with a nice color on top and bottm, crispy, nice oven spring and char on top. I guess I could always get out the torch to char up the top. Might give that a try this weekend.

[scott123]

scott123 may better advise you on this, but if you are using 6% sugar and a steel plate at 550 degrees F, there is a likelihood that you will experience a lot of bottom crust browning and maybe even burning

This is all somewhat theoretical, since I know of no one that's exceeded 2% sugar with steel, but the browning might be so accelerated, the middle of the rim might not completely cook and Eddie might end up with a gum line.

[sb 44 champs]

Well we will find out. Maybe I over did it with the sugar. Oh we'll, chalk it up to inexperience.

[scott123]

Eddie, my earlier comment related to 6% sugar and steel at 550.  If you're at 450-475, you should be fine.

[sb 44 champs]

I ended up baking the pizza's a day early as plans arose for Sunday. Here's a breakdown.
#1 59%hydration >> IMO, this was the hardest dough to work. It was shaggy and could not stretch. Allowed several rest periods but still could not get to 12". I didn't measure but it was in the 9-10" range. Flavor wise, it was ok. My process for this one and the others were to work the ball from the center out and then rest on my knuckles and stretch in a similiar fashion as Peter Reinhart does in one of his video's.

All three were baked on my kettle grill, AKA coon ass pizza oven. First time using it and it is a work in progress. Still hoping for a WFO but for the immediate future, this or my home oven will have to work.
I didn't have a temp gauge so I have no clue what the temp was. On went pizza #1. Launched from the peel and it went on good. went inside for a couple of minutes to work with dough #2. Went back outside and I could tell something was burnt. Bottom of pizza #1 was FUBAR. So that one went on the trash.

Turned down the heat and went back inside to work on dough #2. 65% hydration. This dough was smoother than #1 and a little easier to work. Still could not stretch to 12". Probably about the same size as #1. Went ahead and laid the dough on my peel and topped. Launched in the CAPO and this time stayed by to monitor the cook. This one did not burn and the bottom actually crisped up decently. The top did not brown but I expected that. So I cheated and took out the torch and assisted in getting a little color.
It baked for approx 8-9 minutes then pulled. Dough taste was better than #1 but not great.

On to #3, which is not posted in my original post. This one is the same formula as the others, except I increased the hydration to 70%. By far, this one was the silkest and best looking ball of the three. This one was the easiest to work but still could not stretch to 12". I was able to get it a little bigger then the previous two. Same stretching pocess as the others. Topped the pie but this one stuck to the peel, probably because of the higher hydration. I did use Semolina flour on the peel for all three. I used a piece of dental floss to release the pie from the peel and that worked great. Launched and waited. This heat was a little higher on this one than #2. Pretty much the same result as #2. Probably could have baked a little longer but but pulled it after 8 minutes.

Final analysis is I still need to work on finding a good dough formula that works for me. I also need to work on stretching. All three doughs did start to become way to thin in the middle and dough #1 did tear a bit so I had to do a little patch work. Dough #2 & 3 were also very thin in the middle but did not tear. I think part of this is due to the flour I used and also to my inability to stretch the dough properly.

My phone crapped out but was able to snap a couple of pictures.