High gluten flour and high temperatures?

[pbspelly]

Is there any problem with using HG or bread flour at very high temperatures? The reason I ask is because in nearly all the threads I've seen where people are cooking at extremely high temperatures (either with a WFO or by manipulating their ovens/broilers/cast iron, etc.) they say they are using 00 flour.  I know that that's the Neapolitan way, and that a lot of people say that 00 flour should not be used if you aren't cooking at high temps, but does the reverse hold true? Is there some reason not to use HG or Bread flour at very high temps?

By very high temps, I'm talking about temps where the pizza cooks in 2 or 3 minutes, a la I Have Feet or Jackie Tran.

[scott r]

3 mintues is right at the breaking point where you could probably get away with either a malted or a non malted flour.   At those temps I personally blend the two together (usually an italian 00 flour, and an american high gluten or bread flour).      The malt is what causes browning.. not the protein content in a flour.   If you could find a non malted high gluten flour, you could use it for 1 minute pizzas.   If you could find a malted 00 flour, it would brown nicely with an 8 minute bake.    Typical american high gluten flour is malted, and typical italian 00 flour is not malted.            

[Chicago Bob]

Is there any problem with using HG or bread flour at very high temperatures? The reason I ask is because in nearly all the threads I've seen where people are cooking at extremely high temperatures (either with a WFO or by manipulating their ovens/broilers/cast iron, etc.) they say they are using 00 flour.  I know that that's the Neapolitan way, and that a lot of people say that 00 flour should not be used if you aren't cooking at high temps, but does the reverse hold true? Is there some reason not to use HG or Bread flour at very high temps?

By very high temps, I'm talking about temps where the pizza cooks in 2 or 3 minutes, a la I Have Feet or Jackie Tran.

2-3 minutes is getting towards the outer fringe of a high heat(where it works best) 00 flour NP style pie...I've been seeing a lot of nice 50/50 00/bf pizzas turning out at high heat.

[pbspelly]

Scott,
Thanks for the reply.  But I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.  If someone used malted HG flour at high heat for a one minute pizza, what would happen?

Are you saying it would get overly brown because the malt causes browning?

Paul

[TXCraig1]

Thanks for the reply.  But I'm not sure exactly what you're saying.  If someone used malted HG flour at high heat for a one minute pizza, what would happen?

Are you saying it would get overly brown because the malt causes browning?

HG or not, malted flour will brown faster than non-malted flour because it has a higher sugar content. With respect to browning, it is the sugar that is of particular interest not the gluten.

The malting process develops enzymes which convert some starch in the grain to various sugars. It is these sugars that cause the increase in browning in malted flour. The browning of malted flour is exacerbated at higher temperatures - likewise, the lack of browning of non-malted flour is front and center at lower temperatures.

[Jackie Tran]

pbspelly, let me just toss in a few cents here.  Many of our members are much better scientists than I and can explain the science behind the art much better.  Myself, I just try it and make up my own mind whether something will work or not.

"High temps" or a 2-3 minute bake is a bit subjective depending on who you talk to, but I have documented in several places on the forum using BF, HG, and blends with 00 flour at high temps (725-750+).  In a nutshell, 00 works better at higher temps and malted flours work better at lower temps...BUT it doesn't mean they can't be used outside of their recommended  temp ranges.

I've had great success blending 60-75% 00 flour with the remainder HG flour and baking at 750F in the wfo and LBE for around 2.5-3-4-5 minute bakes.

I have tried BF and HG at 825F a few times with so so results.

When I was with a group of guys at Vesta Pizza, Frank the owner baked up one of his pies at around 825F without it burning.  I believe his dough is 75-80% All Trumps HG flour. 

Here is another example.  Member Doodney is baking in a WFO at temps of 825-875F using Shepherd's Grain flour (a malted flour).  Look at reply 185-191.  Yes charred but I wouldn't call his pizzas burnt.
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,10826.msg149880.html#msg149880

And I know you didn't ask, but you will read many post saying that 00 can't be baked at lower temps or it will get tough.  That's not true either.  Difara's mix, I believe is 75% 00 flour and 25% ATs? and he bakes his pies 7 minutes or so? 

Here's a few NY style pies...caputo 00 flour, water, salt, and starter.  Baked around 4 min in the wfo.  Look at the soft and airy crumb.  Bites through easily without much chew.  Anyways, not to get too far off topic here.  Just saying...things can be done, but yes 00 is more appropriately used at high temps but also makes for great lower temp NY pizza. 

low temp 00 007

Low temp Caputo 00 bake

The reason any crust toughens up significantly after cooling is due to mismanagement of gluten development or overdevelopment.  Too much strength in the dough, ie too much mixing and messing with the dough.

Hope that helps,
Chau

[pbspelly]

It does, thanks.   I also think I just need to do some more experimenting myself.  I just hate wasting pizza