Dough is tearing when I reball it

[caltheide]

I removed the dough from the refrigerator after 2 days, divided it then reballed it for use later today.  As I'm reballing it, the top skin starts splitting and tearing and instead of a nice smooth ball it is split and bumpy, not air pocket bumpy, just bumpy.  Any ideas what is causing this.  Should I have let it sit out at room temp for a while, could the dough having been too cold caused this?  Thanks, Cindy

[caltheide]

Here is what the dough looks like.

[Jackie Tran]

Cindy, the dough is tearing b/c the gluten is weak or not sufficiently developed.  There could be many reasons for this.  Some of the reasons could be the hydration is too high for the flour, the flour is too weak for hydration used, too much oil in the dough, not enough initial mixing, starter is too acidic and in too high of a % was used (if you used a starter but you likely didn't).

If the dough is lumpy, then it's likely you didn't get a good initial mix to begin with.  Reballing is the correct solution to this problem, if it wasn't caused by an acidic starter which I don't think it was.  You did use ADY or IDY correct? 

What you want to do now is to sprinkle a bit of flour at a time on the dough and knead it by hand for a minute or 2.  Just add a bit of flour at a time, just enough so the wet dough will absorb it.  Knead it some and add a bit more if the dough will take it up.  After a few minutes, reball the dough and allow it to sit at room temp covered.  Every 15 min or so, reball it again.  Do this 2-3 times.  This will build quite a bit of strength into the dough.  Each time you reball it, reball it so that the dough forms a ball and keeps it's shape.   It will relax and flattened a bit during the 15m rest period. 

If you want to use it later today, just let it rest and proof up.  Don't reball it again after it begins growing in size.  I hope that makes some sense.

If you post the recipe you used and the methods you used, it will be easier to pin point the problem.

Chau

[caltheide]

Thank you Jackie for the quick response.  I made the dough using the Lehmann dough calculator:
2 - 12" pizza's
100% AP flour
61% water
.5% IDY
3% salt
1% oil
1.5% sugar

I used a kitchen aid but after mixing, the dough was VERY dry and crumbly so I add 10G more of water which should have brought it up to about 65% hydration.  I have read several posts which say not to over process pizza dough if you want a  big open airy crust so I only mixed/kneaded for about 6 minutes.  I don't like bready pizza.  I let rest for about 10 minutes then put in an oiled plastic tub for 2 days in the refrigerator.  I took out earlier to divide and reball and this was what I ended up with.  I will try the reballing adding a little flour and see what happens.

[scott123]

Chau, respectfully, this is not underdeveloped dough.  This is overdeveloped dough. Completely no knead doughs, with 2 days of cold fermentation, would never tear like this.

This is dough that was most likely pretty smooth going into the fridge, and with 2 days of fermentation, developed even more gluten.  It might have been okay without the reball, but, once the reball was introduced, it was too much.  The fact that Cindy re-balled cold dough, where the gluten is tighter than at room temp, only compounded the problem.

Cindy, what did the dough look like going into the fridge? Was it smooth? Try less initial mixing, and also think about adding more water. You also might want to take a look at your re-balling technique. For typical hydrations, folding the dough two turns under itself is more than sufficient.

Edit: 3% salt is too much for what I'm guessing is NY style dough.  That's going to contribute to tighter gluten as well.  Go with 2%

[caltheide]

I used King Arthur All Purpose flour for this batch.  I balled it before putting it in the tub then reballed again right after taking out of the refrigerator, so it was cold.  Based on your post I think I may be doing to much when I reball because I turn it in on itself probably 8 times (I thought more was better to get air in creating a more open airy bubbly crust) I then roll on counter several times (3 -4) to make it really nice and round with a bubbly top.  It sounds like I may be over doing it trying to get the bubbly open airy crust.  How do I get that type of crust?

[Jackie Tran]

No worries Scott, we can disagree.    I have made countless batches of every type of dough imagineable and the only time any of my doughs look like that is from gluten underdevelopment.  I have also made many batches of dough where I over develop the gluten and I have never see it tear or degrade like this.  At least not when using your typical PM pizza dough and commercial yeast.  Only maybe if I used an over mature starter in high quantities and the dough was dissolved.

Also, using AP flour at 61% hydration with 1% oil and mixing it for 6 minutes would in no way overdevelop gluten, regardless of what environment you live in.  But I do agree that doughs can fall apart if mixing is taken to an extreme level, but that would be like 30 minutes plus.  She then added more water and thinks the hydration is near 65%.  Plus 1% oil and now we are looking at 66% with an AP flour.  That's a bit high don't you think Scott?

I will also say that I can agree with you that IF cindy is balling too aggressively (which I hadn't considered before), it is possible that she is tearing the dough ball during the balling process.  But then the reason for the tearing would be from overballing and not over gluten development.  

Also, if she has taken my advice and it improves the dough, then I conclude that the dough was underdeveloped to begin with and not overdeveloped.  So Cindy, we are anxiously awaiting an update.

Chau

[caltheide]

Okay...First I did as Jackie advised since I had not yet seen Scott's post SO here's what I did exactly:
I did reball one time with probably 1/2 teaspoon of flour, folding it in on itself 4 - 5 times.  At the time of reballing, it had been out at room temperature for about 2 hours.  It did look and feel much better and smoother than the first time.  In the interim I read Scott's post so I didn't reball after that.  Several hours later, at room temp, I shaped by hand and it was very nice and soft and easy to work with.  I cooked at 500 for 7 minutes and this is how it came out, see pic below.  It was pretty good, breadyier than I like, but the crust was puffy and had a kinda/sorta decent crunch to it.  I will cut the cook time down a minute next time.  I've read SO many posts trying to achieve the crust I am looking for but am SO confused regarding over and under development. Thank you both so much for your help.

[Chicago Bob]

Thank you Jackie for the quick response.  I made the dough using the Lehmann dough calculator:
2 - 12" pizza's
100% AP flour
61% water
.5% IDY
3% salt
1% oil
1.5% sugar

I used a kitchen aid but after mixing, the dough was VERY dry and crumbly so I add 10G more of water which should have brought it up to about 65% hydration. 

  I win!     Cindy miss measured something. 

[caltheide]

It is possible I miss measured at first even though I used a scale to carefully measure everything, but once I added in the 10g of water the dough looked and felt more like a typical dough (if there is such a thing) so I don't think, but I don't know if that is what contributed to the splitting, bumpy dough.  I think it is very possible or even probable I over or under developed the dough.  Or is it more probable the dough was just to cold and stiff to reball and I should have let it come to room temp first.  I just don't know how to tell if a dough is over developed or under developed so I guess my biggest question now is, how will I know?  I have read several posts which state the key to big open airy holes, other than higher hydration, is not over developing the dough or you end up with a tight crumb bready pizza crust.  I do not want a bready pizza, so how long should I be kneading?  By hand or with a mixer?  How can I tell when the dough is just right?  Is it the look?  Is it the feel?  Is it just trial and error and will come with time and experience?  It seems like for every post I look at I now have two or more questions.  Maybe I'm just over thinking it!? Uggggg

[Chicago Bob]

Cindy,
Try not to get too discouraged, just about everyone goes through this initial learning curve. There's just so much information here it can be quite overwhelming...but it will get easier, don't worry.

Now, that first pic you posted above is about how you want your dough to look after doing just a minimal amount of mixing...2-3 minutes should get you to this texture. Actually, it could look even a little more bumpy/ cottage cheese looking as many here like to call it. That is all you need and it will turn nice and smooth as it ferments. Hope this helps.
Bob

[Jackie Tran]

Or is it more probable the dough was just to cold and stiff to reball and I should have let it come to room temp first.  I just don't know how to tell if a dough is over developed or under developed so I guess my biggest question now is, how will I know?  I have read several posts which state the key to big open airy holes, other than higher hydration, is not over developing the dough or you end up with a tight crumb bready pizza crust.  I do not want a bready pizza, so how long should I be kneading?  By hand or with a mixer?  How can I tell when the dough is just right?  Is it the look?  Is it the feel?  Is it just trial and error and will come with time and experience?  It seems like for every post I look at I now have two or more questions.  Maybe I'm just over thinking it!? Uggggg

Cindy, I will try to answer your questions here but keep in mind this is just one guy's opinion.  There is no problem reballing cold dough or room temp dough as long you don't over do it on the balling.  There is no set # of turns you should when balling.  It really depends on the dough.  If the dough is slack then it will require more than 2 turns.  If the dough is stiff, it may not need any reballing at all.  Reballing builds strength into dough and should only be used if the dough requires it. Reballing is done by feel but it is pretty simple to understand once you get it.  Go to youtube and look up a few videos on reballing.  Generally speaking you don't want to form really tight balls, unless they are to go through extended fermentation.  How tight the balls should be formed is a matter of preference and in time you will learn what is the appropriate feel to your dough to achieve your desired results.

As far as underdevelopment or overdevelopment of a dough is concern, it is important to look at the consequences of each.  If you underdevelop a dough, you won't get that open airy crumb.  Instead you will get a more flat rimmed and not so airy crumb.  If you over develop a dough, you will get an open airy crumb but as the pizza cools, the crust will become very chewy.  The overdeveloped dough will be hard to open and will be fairly elastic (think rubberband).  As you open up the dough or stretch it bigger, it will have a tendency to spring back like a rubber band.  A little spring is good, too much is not.   On the opposite end, if you have an underdeveloped dough, it will be too extensible.  Meaning it will open almost too easily, be prone to tears, and just plain a PITA to work with.  The dough may feel sticky to the touch.

As you make more dough and get more practice, and continue to read, you will learn what an overdeveloped or underdeveloped dough looks like or how each behaves.   What Scott was talking about earlier is not only just overdeveloping a dough but extreme overdevelopement to where the dough will fall apart.  Scott If I misunderstood you, please correct me.  Cindy I don't believe that is what happened to your dough as 6min of mixing can not do that to a dough.  Even a dry dough.   What likely happened is either underdevelopment or even likier is that you overballed the dough thus tearing it and breaking the gluten strands.  

If you want an open and airy crumb, one trick to doing it is to do a minimal mix in the mixer to bring the ingredients together (around 3min on the lowest speed).  Then allow the dough to sit covered for 10-15min.  At this point you will develop the gluten by hand by doing stretch and folds to the dough.  Youtube this if you don't know what it means.  Give the dough another 15m rest and repeat.  You will do 2-3 or more cycles of this depending on how much strength you want to build into the dough or how wet (or weak) your dough is.   You may or may not need to reball down the road depending on the temp of fermentation (cold vs. cool vs room temps) and how long you ferment for.  Generally speaking the longer you ferment, the dough has a tendency to become weaker and release some moisture.  This is where limited and gentle reballing can rebuild the strength of the dough.  

How can you tell if the dough is just right?  Well just right means different things to different people, but this is where experimentation comes in.  Get a notebook and keep detail notes of every bake.  For each new bake, you can safely introduce 1-2 new unrelated variables (no more) and see if you can see the difference.  I usually do experiments with extremes.  For example if I'm experimenting with hydration, I might try a 10% difference.  I'll note how each dough feels and handles during initial mix, folding, fermentation, how they feel when they are divided and balled, how they proof up, how they bake up, and the end taste and texture.  You can then get a good idea on where you want to be.  

This is the only way to learn how to make pizza.  It's not by recipes or not by what "the experts" tell you.  Recipes and expert opinions can only guide you or put you on the path but it won't get you there.  In time, your hard work will pay off.  

Good luck,
Chau

[mkevenson]

Chau, thank you for an enlightening post. For newbies like me those words are full of insight that I have already put to use. I now understand even better the WHY.
Mark

[Jackie Tran]

You're welcome Mark.  Glad it is helpful.

Cindy I will say that the pizza you posted looks 100x better than my first pies.  You are on the right path.  Keep reading, experimenting and asking questions. 


Chau