Author Topic: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?  (Read 3021 times)

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Offline Chaze215

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Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« on: February 24, 2013, 07:58:15 PM »
I see that they are pretty pricey :o but was wondering how they work for NY style pizzas and if they are worth the hefty price tag. Thanks in advance!
Chaz


Offline Chaze215

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #1 on: February 24, 2013, 08:10:17 PM »
Chaz

Offline jeff v

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #2 on: February 24, 2013, 08:31:03 PM »
Are you planning on asking fresh pizza w it? If so you may want to look elsewhere.

"Tuesday, July 5, 2011
Q: Can this oven bake fresh pizzas?
A: This Bakers Pride Electric Countertop Deck Oven (PX-16) is designed for baking products with pre-baked crust, warming and finishing. It is ieal for hot wings and sushi but not cooking raw pizzas."


http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/bakers-pride/px-16/p390297.aspx

Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #3 on: February 24, 2013, 08:32:08 PM »
There has been talk here several times about the Sage ovens. It too has both top and bottom controllable heat like the one you linked to....
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Online Chicago Bob

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2013, 08:36:46 PM »
Are you planning on asking fresh pizza w it? If so you may want to look elsewhere.

"Tuesday, July 5, 2011
Q: Can this oven bake fresh pizzas?
A: This Bakers Pride Electric Countertop Deck Oven (PX-16) is designed for baking products with pre-baked crust, warming and finishing. It is ieal for hot wings and sushi but not cooking raw pizzas."


http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/bakers-pride/px-16/p390297.aspx


Huh...add says it reaches 680 degrees. Only a 1500 watt heater though....wonder how they split that into top and bottom heat?  I think Scott said this oven was a no go....
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Offline Chaze215

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2013, 09:01:19 PM »
Yeah Jeff I saw that after I posted the link.... lol I wonder why that is. We'll see what Scott has to say about it.
Chaz

scott123

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #6 on: February 25, 2013, 02:55:24 AM »
An easy bake pizza oven oven! How cute!  :-D

Seriously, though, as Bob said, I give this a whopping stamp of disapproval.

First of all, Chaz, since you reference NY style in your post, everything I'm going to say is from a NY style perspective.  Chicago thin, with it's longer bake, might function perfectly fine with a low wattage oven.  I have no idea what kind of heat Chicago thin requires.

My thoughts on countertops are evolving.  6 months ago, I might have said, this oven is worthless and 99% of other countertops are garbage, but, as of late, the more numbers I crunch, the more suspect I am of all countertops.  Here is the countertop data I've collected:

Model

PM451ED

PM451ED-1

ebay chinese @ 1.6 kW

ebay chinese @ 2.4 kW

My home oven

Sage PD11-A 400

Sage PD14-A 400

Cecilware PO22

bp p22s

Compact M35/8 Pizza Group

bp p16
kW

3.63

5.42

1.6

2.4

5.7

2.2

4.2

3.6

3.6

1.98

1.5
Watts per Sq. Inch

5.5

5.5

3.1

4.7

7.3

3.8

3.5

2.7

2.8

5.2

2.4

As you can see, compared to my home oven, even correcting for the smaller surface area, these are all weaker ovens.  The pizzamasters (PM) aren't bad, at 5.5w/in2, and Pizzamaster is a respectable manufacturer, but it's still not as strong as my home oven.

And my home oven isn't extraordinarily strong.  I'm hoping to eventually have a bigger sampling size, but as you can see in this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20146.0.html

most electric home ovens are considerably stronger than countertops.

I've cooled considerably on Sage. Other than the gas ovens with the separate broiler drawer, I have yet to come across a home oven that, with 1/2" steel, can't outperform the Sage ovens with faster pre-heats and faster recovery times.

And this is being compared to a home oven. In a commercial environment, unless these countertops are being used for rewarming, this direction is money down the drain.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2013, 03:43:19 AM by scott123 »

Offline Bobino414

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #7 on: February 25, 2013, 10:36:27 AM »
Scott

Help me understand your watts per sq. inch.  Is this based on floor measurement or shelf measurement taking into account number of shelves?  What about calculating watts per usable volume or stated another way watts per cubic inch impacted by the heating elements?

Bob

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #8 on: February 25, 2013, 07:24:58 PM »
An easy bake pizza oven oven! How cute!  :-D

Seriously, though, as Bob said, I give this a whopping stamp of disapproval.

First of all, Chaz, since you reference NY style in your post, everything I'm going to say is from a NY style perspective.  Chicago thin, with it's longer bake, might function perfectly fine with a low wattage oven.  I have no idea what kind of heat Chicago thin requires.

My thoughts on countertops are evolving.  6 months ago, I might have said, this oven is worthless and 99% of other countertops are garbage, but, as of late, the more numbers I crunch, the more suspect I am of all countertops.  Here is the countertop data I've collected:

Model

PM451ED

PM451ED-1

ebay chinese @ 1.6 kW

ebay chinese @ 2.4 kW

My home oven

Sage PD11-A 400

Sage PD14-A 400

Cecilware PO22

bp p22s

Compact M35/8 Pizza Group

bp p16
kW

3.63

5.42

1.6

2.4

5.7

2.2

4.2

3.6

3.6

1.98

1.5
Watts per Sq. Inch

5.5

5.5

3.1

4.7

7.3

3.8

3.5

2.7

2.8

5.2

2.4

As you can see, compared to my home oven, even correcting for the smaller surface area, these are all weaker ovens.  The pizzamasters (PM) aren't bad, at 5.5w/in2, and Pizzamaster is a respectable manufacturer, but it's still not as strong as my home oven.

And my home oven isn't extraordinarily strong.  I'm hoping to eventually have a bigger sampling size, but as you can see in this thread:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20146.0.html

most electric home ovens are considerably stronger than countertops.

I've cooled considerably on Sage. Other than the gas ovens with the separate broiler drawer, I have yet to come across a home oven that, with 1/2" steel, can't outperform the Sage ovens with faster pre-heats and faster recovery times.

And this is being compared to a home oven. In a commercial environment, unless these countertops are being used for rewarming, this direction is money down the drain.

Thank for that in depth reply Scott.  So... in a nutshell, they suck.  :-D
Chaz

Offline MikesCookin

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2013, 08:58:54 PM »
I have a Sage PD11-A 400 on order for home use.  When looking at other counter top models (Baker's Pride, Nemco, Vollrath) these were all in the $1,000 - $1,200 range and don't dial up to 400 C. 

My current oven is an electric Frigidaire with convect. Works fine (4 min bake on 5/8" soapstone) but it keeps error coding when it goes over a certain temp, and it's a fairly large space to heat up.

-Mike


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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #10 on: February 25, 2013, 09:10:12 PM »
Sounds good Mike. Would you mind sharing how you came to decide on one of the Sage ovens....have you seen one in use?
Thanks!
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Offline MikesCookin

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2013, 09:28:42 PM »
Bob,

I found a thread here a while back >>  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12165.0.html

 - and I liked what I read.  It's new and will cost me less than a used Baker's pride I found on Craig's List and that was not 220V.

-Mike

Offline Chaze215

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2013, 10:02:16 PM »
Mike,  congratulations on your purchase!  I can't wait to see what the pies look like coming out of that oven. What kind of pies do you plan on baking in that oven? Keep us posted!
Chaz

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2013, 10:09:42 PM »
Thank for that in depth reply Scott.  So... in a nutshell, they suck.  :-D
Scott,
Does the size of the cooking chamber matter?

The Sage PD11-A 400 is less than have(2.2) kw than your home oven yet it hits temps of 700+ degrees
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scott123

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #14 on: February 26, 2013, 06:20:21 AM »
Help me understand your watts per sq. inch.  Is this based on floor measurement or shelf measurement taking into account number of shelves?  What about calculating watts per usable volume or stated another way watts per cubic inch impacted by the heating elements?

Bob, because heat rises, and, in a properly insulated oven, the walls really shouldn't be losing that much heat, vertical space is not a part of my equation.  If you've got the stone on the top shelf in a home oven, it will take longer for it to pre-heat compared to a countertop stone with the element directly below it, but both systems will have thermostats that will cut off at or near the temperature on the dial. In other words, both stones will reach their target temps.

scott123

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #15 on: February 26, 2013, 06:45:39 AM »
Scott,
Does the size of the cooking chamber matter?

The Sage PD11-A 400 is less than have(2.2) kw than your home oven yet it hits temps of 700+ degrees

Bob, the surface area of the oven shelf matters.  That's where I get my square inches from, as in watts per sq. inch.  Like I told Bobino414, though, I don't base any calculations off of volume.

Almost all these countertops have thermostats that allow them to reach incredibly high temps, but, for NY style, I'm not sure these temps are all that necessary.  While there's a chance these ovens might be able to do a balanced 2-3 minute bake (depending on broiler strength, which, at these wattages could get iffy), 2-3 minutes, is, imo, pretty far outside the NY style realm.

Even if someone had their heart set on a Bianco-ish 2-3 minute time frame, I think a home oven with a gentle mod (such as a frozen towel trick) would achieve 2-3 minute bakes more consistently, with less recovery time and a far lower price point. Above 3 minutes, though, seems to be achievable by just about anyone with 1/2" steel.  You do find the occasional person with a very anemic oven- I believe Peter has issues exceeding 475 and Kenji talks about having problems exceeding 450-500.  Most people, though, either have ovens with 550 dials that hit 550+ or 500 dials that will exceed at least 530.  For this vast majority, home ovens are preferable to countertops.

Offline MikesCookin

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #16 on: February 26, 2013, 11:00:00 AM »
Chaz,

Looking forward to testing it and will post pics.  New York style thin crust currently.  Using a 50/50 blend of bread flour and 00 at about 60% hydration with a starter culture and cold rise.   I like the pizzas coming out of my current oven, (will post some pics when I get a chance) but I really don’t want to continue to cause error codes and shut down the oven when it gets well over 600F.
 
Will have to see how the ceramic flagstone (which I have never used and comes with the Sage) compares to the soapstone I’m currently using.  Pleased  with the soapstone,  it comes up to temp quickly and if I launch a pizza on to it at 600F surface temp, (although this can vary depending on the exact location on the stone) 4 – 4 ˝ minutes later when the pie comes off, the stone is  still at 565-570F so there’s not a substantial heat loss or huge recovery time.   And this is 5/8” tile, I suspect 3/4” would be better and 10/8” better still but I didn’t want the added weight on the racks.

Scott, any thoughts on the ceramic flagstone properties vs.  soapstone?

Thx.
Mike

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #17 on: February 26, 2013, 11:23:11 PM »
Mike, I believe that 'ceramic flagstone' is just marketing speak for 'cordierite.' It's either going to be cordierite or a cast cement material like fibrament. The fibrament tends to be a little less durable, but both should suit your needs. Because the Sage ovens have such a wide range in temps, the only concern you might have with the hearth material is durability, and, as far as I know, Sage ovens have durable hearths.  While the forum has a handful of Sage oven owners, it doesn't seem like people have been using them much- at least not in recent years.  Still, they've been around long enough that if the hearth was in any way prone to issues (such as cracking), we'd know about it.

Because you have the option to pre-heat the stone to any NY style temperature imaginable, the conductivity of the hearth material makes no difference.  While a home oven owner has to reach for more conductive materials such as soapstone or steel to accommodate ovens that can only reach sub 600 temps, if your bottom isn't browning fast enough, you can just turn up the dial and increase the pre-heat temp.

Scott's instructions for using this kind of oven are on the money:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12165.msg114690.html#msg114690

I don't know what bake time he's seeing with a 625 pre-heat, so it will take some trial and error with pre-heat temps to match your present 4 minute bake, but there will be a number that gets you there.  It should be somewhere between 600 and 650.

My biggest concern with this oven and this stone is recovery.  This is a thin, low thermal mass stone with an anemic burner below it.  I don't know how many pies you plan on doing at once, but, I think if you plan on doing more than 3, you could end up drawing a large portion of the heat from the stone and see long recovery times.  You could try putting in a thicker stone, and that may give you more pies before the stone is spent, but it will extend your pre-heat time considerably, and, because of the weak burner, again, you'll hit a wall where the heat in the stone is depleted and you'll have to give the stone time to recover. With an extra thick stone, that recovery time will be even longer.

For making lots of pizzas in a single setting, there's going to be an approach that feeds the stone with heat at the same rate that you're drawing heat from it, but it's going to take a considerable amount of experimentation to find it.

In all fairness, home ovens have these same high volume concerns.  Around pie 5, my undercrusts start looking pale, and I have yet to dial in the exact method to prevent that.  The only difference is that my stronger burner allows me to feed my stone a bit faster.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #18 on: February 26, 2013, 11:42:58 PM »
Mike for that price of that  easy bake you can get a nice bakers pride counter top  1 or 2 deck on ebay right ?   John
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Re: Has anyone used a countertop deck oven?
« Reply #19 on: February 27, 2013, 12:20:39 AM »
Are you planning on asking fresh pizza w it? If so you may want to look elsewhere.

"Tuesday, July 5, 2011
Q: Can this oven bake fresh pizzas?
A: This Bakers Pride Electric Countertop Deck Oven (PX-16) is designed for baking products with pre-baked crust, warming and finishing. It is ieal for hot wings and sushi but not cooking raw pizzas."


http://www.foodservicewarehouse.com/bakers-pride/px-16/p390297.aspx


Mike for that price of that  easy bake you can get a nice bakers pride counter top  1 or 2 deck on ebay right ?   John
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


 

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