Author Topic: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG  (Read 15038 times)

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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 06:31:06 PM »
J,

I have long been curious about the "best" or "most desirable" length of autolyse rest periods, especially since the duration is a question that properly comes up from time to time. We have had members use as little as ten minutes to overnight for pizza dough. But, in the bread world, autolyse periods tend to be quite short, especially in relation to the amount of dough made. I examined this facet for several dough recipes in Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread given that he was the "father" of the autolyse method as applied to French bread. For my findings, see Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624. As I have noted before, autolyse is one of those things where people conclude that if a little is good, then using much more must be a lot better.

Peter

As you've noted, I figured if a little is good than more would be better. Not sure that's the case. I'm very accustomed to working with high hydration doughs, especially since I make all my pie and bread dough by hand - but something about that 4 hour long autolyse just didn't seem right.  I really had to work hard to get it "serviceable"...And I do recall another time I left only the flour and water together (around 80% hydration) for an extended period of time (12 hours - this was by accident!), I had to throw that dough out because I couldn't develop the gluten sufficiently. Eventually I'd like to be able to understand what actually happens to the dough as a result of a long autolyse...Thanks for your thoughts on this Peter!
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »
Eventually I'd like to be able to understand what actually happens to the dough as a result of a long autolyse...Thanks for your thoughts on this Peter!
J,

Eventually is now :-D. What essentially happens during the autolyse rest period is a softening of the gluten that is formed by combining flour and water. What causes this softening is the action of protease enzymes to attack the gluten matrix. When the autolyse rest period is short, the damage to the gluten is minimal. However, when the autolyse period is a very extended one, the proteolytic action can dismantle the gluten matrix and cause water to be released from its bond, rendering the dough wet and clammy and difficult to work with, if at all. The same thing can happen for a normally fermented dough but it normally takes a long time for this to happen. You can read more on this subject at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145957;topicseen#msg145957.

You might also find the following threads of interest in that they relate to what is often called a soaker dough, which is similar to an autolysed dough. Soaker doughs are doughs that are made from only flour and water and allowed to rest for very long periods--for example, overnight--before using with preferments and other dough ingredients to make a final dough that can be used to make pizzas:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7770.msg66722#msg66722

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19129.0

Peter

 

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2014, 01:53:05 PM »
J,

Eventually is now :-D. What essentially happens during the autolyse rest period is a softening of the gluten that is formed by combining flour and water. What causes this softening is the action of protease enzymes to attack the gluten matrix. When the autolyse rest period is short, the damage to the gluten is minimal. However, when the autolyse period is a very extended one, the proteolytic action can dismantle the gluten matrix and cause water to be released from its bond, rendering the dough wet and clammy and difficult to work with, if at all. The same thing can happen for a normally fermented dough but it normally takes a long time for this to happen. You can read more on this subject at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145957;topicseen#msg145957.

You might also find the following threads of interest in that they relate to what is often called a soaker dough, which is similar to an autolysed dough. Soaker doughs are doughs that are made from only flour and water and allowed to rest for very long periods--for example, overnight--before using with preferments and other dough ingredients to make a final dough that can be used to make pizzas:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7770.msg66722#msg66722

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19129.0

Peter

Eventually is now :-D  Sorry about the late response.  As always, thanks for your thoughts and the informative links.
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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2014, 02:29:14 PM »
Here's a 70% hydrated dough that was NOT originally intended for use as a Pizzarium style dough, but as a high hydrated NY style dough. Here's the formula I used:

985 gms AP flour (9.8% protein) + 15 gms VWG = 1000 gms flour
685 gms water
20 gms EVOO
17 gms non iodized salt
4 gms fresh CY

I mixed the flour & VWG together, then added this to the water.  Once all the flour particles were hydrated, I gave the dough a couple loose folds and left it alone to autolyse for 25 minutes.

Next, I moistened the CY with 5 gms of water to form a paste, which I spread over the dough. A couple minutes of kneading followed by a couple stretch and folds, then I added the salt, giving the dough 5 more stretch and folds.

I then added the oil, which was incorporated throughout the dough by kneading and several stretch and folds. The doughball went into an oiled ss bowl, covered with clingfilm and into the fridge where it bulk fermented for 4 hours.  Next, I divided and balled 4 ~260 gm doughballs. There was a bunch of leftover dough, which was used for the pie below.  I didn't weight it, but it was around 475 gms or so.  I was going to make a Sicilian style pie but ended up making a pizza insalata - salad pizza.

The first two pics are of the parbaked dough - topped with EVOO, a little tomato sauce and a light scattering of mozz as well as some cubed mozz.

The rest of the pics are of the final pizza insalata, topped with rocket, thin shaved carrots, thinly sliced red and green bell peppers, cherry tomatoes, fontina cheese shavings, parma ham and EVOO. You CAN have your salad and eat it too!  :-D OK, showing myself to the door now...
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Online Matthew

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2014, 04:51:04 PM »
Great job Johnny!


Matt

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #55 on: September 02, 2014, 08:39:51 PM »
Thank you Matt!
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Offline VarunS

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #56 on: September 07, 2014, 03:50:54 PM »
Johnny your pizzas are gorgeous!  :drool:

Have you tried re heating this style of pizza after refrigerating? Does it still have crispness/ crunchiness to it?

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #57 on: September 07, 2014, 04:04:42 PM »
VarunS, thank you!

I like to have some pizza leftovers, and this style tends to reheat pretty good. The bottom will have a nice crispness/crunchiness, and the exposed, cut sides will get a little "toasty". The crumb however will retain some moistness/softness.
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Offline Gags

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #58 on: September 08, 2014, 07:32:06 PM »
Great stuff (again), Maestro Johnny!!

Your pies always look amazing and you do a great job with the photography!!

"I'd trade it all for just a little bit more"


Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #59 on: September 09, 2014, 09:38:10 AM »
Thank you for the kind words Gags, it means a lot to me - but I'm no Maestro!

Hope all is well, cheers!
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Online tinroofrusted

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #60 on: September 09, 2014, 10:11:44 AM »
Looks totally delicious JTG!  Thanks for posting. 

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #61 on: December 08, 2014, 05:49:23 PM »
Been a while since I've made one of these.

48 hr cold fermentation. 72% hydration, 1.8% salt, .4% CY, 2% EVOO. Dough made with 12% protein brazilian AP ("Util" brand) flour.

Topped with hand crushed peeled tomatoes, fresh sliced garlic, anchovy fillets, capers, EVOO and oregano.
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Offline Stromung

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #62 on: December 21, 2014, 11:08:52 PM »
Hi john the gent

How do you prepare the potatoe pizza?  Looks good

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2015, 05:14:21 AM »

How do you prepare the potatoe pizza?

In the past I've boiled them in salted water with saffron or turmeric (for color), allowed them to cool/drain, after which chunks can be broken off and crumbled onto the pie. Alternatively you can use a previously baked potato, which works well if you want to use potato slices on a pie. Hope that helps!
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Offline Stromung

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2015, 01:27:35 AM »
Johny the gent,

You are a pizza artist.

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #65 on: January 16, 2015, 06:34:02 AM »
Thank you!
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Offline pk

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Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #66 on: September 06, 2015, 11:59:15 AM »
Hi Johnny,

As a new member it was my pleasure to find one of your old threads!!!

You have great oven spring with all the pizza's in that thread.

I know you mentioned that you cooked the pizza's at 300 degrees celsius for 12 minutes. I was wondering if I could ask you about your equipment setup?! (as a newbie to this site I am assuming a home setup?)


What kind of oven are you using?
Pizza stone?
Type of pan used?

Thanks for sharing so much info!

-Peter