Author Topic: Is this too much IDY ?  (Read 2683 times)

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Offline mkevenson

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Is this too much IDY ?
« on: March 16, 2013, 07:48:56 PM »
I have been reducing my yeast amounts from 0.35%  to 0.2% in 0.05 increments.
By looking at these pics can you tell if I used the right amount of IDY?


Flour 100%
Water 63%
Salt 2%
IDY 0.2%
EVOO 3.5%
Vital wheat gluten 2%


Water was 100 F


Dough ball was 76.1 F

Put in cooler for 25 hrs, temp 55-59F

Mark

« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 07:53:42 PM by mkevenson »
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #1 on: March 16, 2013, 08:09:51 PM »
I have been reducing my yeast amounts from 0.35%  to 0.2% in 0.05 increments.
By looking at these pics can you tell if I used the right amount of IDY?


Flour 100%
Water 63%
Salt 2%
IDY 0.2%
EVOO 3.5%
Vital wheat gluten 2%


Water was 100 F


Dough ball was 76.1 F

Put in cooler for 25 hrs, temp 55-59F
Mark,

Based on the fermentation temperature range and duration, I think the IDY is still too much. I would start with 0.05% IDY and work up from there in increments if needed. I would say even lower but I am not sure what effect the high amount of oil might have on the fermentation process.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #2 on: March 16, 2013, 10:18:22 PM »
Or you can keep the same amount of yeast and just use RT water.  ;D

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #3 on: March 16, 2013, 10:25:51 PM »
Or you can keep the same amount of yeast and just use RT water.  ;D

Jackie, I have been increasing the water temp to get the dough ball temp where it is.
I have used water at 85F and the dough ball temp was 71F.
Mark
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #4 on: March 16, 2013, 10:34:27 PM »

Mark,


Based on the fermentation temperature range and duration, I think the IDY is still too much. I would start with 0.05% IDY and work up from there in increments if needed. I would say even lower but I am not sure what effect the high amount of oil might have on the fermentation process.






Peter


Peter, thank you. What worries me a bit is the lack of cornice rise, spring, which has been better with higher IDY %.
Of course this may also be due to my inconsistency in opening the dough.
Here are some pics of the finished product. I am happy that I was able to bake at approx 700F and not burn the bottom. I encorporated a suggestion to add an air buffer between the lower stone and the stone tray.


Mark
« Last Edit: March 16, 2013, 10:36:08 PM by mkevenson »
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #5 on: March 16, 2013, 10:58:26 PM »
Jackie, I have been increasing the water temp to get the dough ball temp where it is.
I have used water at 85F and the dough ball temp was 71F.
Mark

Mark what is the benefit of a specific finishing dough temp?

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2013, 08:40:30 AM »
Mark,

Can you tell us what dough ball weight you are using, or the thickness factor and pizza size, and also the type/brand of flour and vital wheat gluten you are using?

Peter

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2013, 10:49:17 AM »
Mark what is the benefit of a specific finishing dough temp?

Jackie, from what I have read here, I believe Tom Lehmann states that a specific dough ball temp is desirable. I can't remember the exact reason and I have not found the answer by searching. This whole subject was in conjunction with heat being created by mixing in a stand mixer. I know that this has been referenced by several members, perhaps Peter can shed some light.
I will continue searching for the reference.

Mark


I found this one. It does not state the reason and the desired dough temp is higher than what I achieved. My flour is kept refrigerated.



 

(http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/Themes/pizzamaking/images/post/xx.gif)  Re: Dough Temperature Formula 
« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2011, 11:59:45 AM »
 
 
Pete;
Good point. For home use, where we are trying to get a finished dough temperature in the 80 degree range, the procedure where we subtract the flour temperature from the number 145 seems to work pretty well. In any case, it sure beats the guess and by gosh method. So, simply take the temperature of the flour and subtract that from 145 to get the desired water temperature to give you a finished dough within the range of 80 to90F. which is quite workable when making pizzas at home. When I make my pizzas for demonstration at home, or for family enjoyment, I use this method for calculating the water temperature, and my mixer consists of a wood spoon and a suitably sized bowl. I suspend the yeast in a very small amount of water (100F) for 10-minutes if using instant dry or active dry yeast. If using compressed yeast, I just stir it into the water that I've added to the mixing bowl, then add the flour, followed by the salt, sugar (if called for), and then I begin stirring, until the mixture looks like wet oatmeal, then add the oil, and stir in for about 1-minute, I then turn the "paste" out onto a floured surface, making sure to scrape the bowl clean, I oil the bowl, the then scoop up the "dough" and kneed in the flour adhering to the outer surface (this just takes a few seconds) and then place the dough back into the oiled bowl where it is allowed to ferment at room temperature for anything from 2 to 5-hours. I then turn the dough (it now actually looks like a dough) out onto the bench with a little dusting flour and kneed the dough for about a minute, or so, adding just enough dusting flour to it to make a nice feeling dough. Then place back into the bowl to ferment again for 30-minutes, now turn out of the bowl into some dusting flour, and roll or hand toss the dough to desired size, dress and bake. This makes for a very rustic looking pizza with a lot of old world charm. Most people that I show this to are amazed at how little work is actually needed to make a great pizza.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 11:23:41 AM by mkevenson »
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2013, 10:57:12 AM »
Mark,

Can you tell us what dough ball weight you are using, or the thickness factor and pizza size, and also the type/brand of flour and vital wheat gluten you are using?

Peter
Peter, the bowl comp factor is 1.5
the dough ball weight after kneading was 340g
the flour is Arrowhead organic enriched wheat flour, I chose this because it is not malted
The Vital Wheat gluten is also Arrowhead mills

           
     
Nutrition Facts
Serving Size: 1/4 cup (34g)
Servings Per Container: about 27
 
Amount Per Serving
 
Calories 120 Calories from Fat 5
 
% Daily Value*
 
Total Fat 0.5g 1%
 
  Saturated Fat 0g 0%
 
  Trans Fat 0g   
 
Cholesterol 0mg 0%
 
Sodium 0mg 0%
 
Potassium 35mg 1%
 
Total Carb. 26g 9%
 
  Dietary Fiber < 1g 3%
 
  Sugars 0g   
 
Protein 4g   
 
Vitamin A 0% • Vitamin C 0%
 
Calcium 0% • Iron 6%
 
Thiamin 8% • Riboflavin 4%
 
Niacin 6%   
 
* Percent Daily Values are based on a 2,000 calorie diet. Your daily values may be higher or lower depending on your calorie needs.
 
  Calories: 2,000 2,500
 
Total Fat Less than 65g 80g
  Sat Fat Less than 20g 25g
Cholesterol Less than 300mg 300mg
Sodium Less than 2,400mg 2,400mg
Total Carbohydrate 300g 375g
  Dietary Fiber 25g 30g
 
 
The most accurate information is always on the label on the actual product. We periodically update our labels based on new nutritional analysis to verify natural variations from crop to crop and at times formula revisions. The website does not necessarily get updated at the same time. The values on the website are intended to be a general guide to consumers. For absolute values, the actual label on the product at hand should be relied on.
 
BenefitsGood Source of Folate; Vitamin Enriched; Dairy Free; A Sodium Free Food; Low Fat; Vegetarian.

DetailsIngredients:
organic unbleached white flour, niacin, reduced iron, thiamin mononitrate, riboflavin, folic acid.



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Offline norma427

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2013, 11:15:23 AM »
Mark,

Peter referenced Tom Lehmann’s article about final dough temperatures and friction factors to me at Reply 1592 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg239925.html#msg239925

Norma

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2013, 11:33:05 AM »
Mark,

Peter referenced Tom Lehmann’s article about final dough temperatures and friction factors to me at Reply 1592 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21559.msg239925.html#msg239925

Norma

Thank you, Norma. Do you recall the reason why one wants a specific dough temp. That referenced article states how to calculate it and that in a commercial setting it provides reproducibility of dough, but for the home setting?
I assume it has to do with the fermentation equation. By looking at my ingredients etc, Peter can figure out how much IDY I should use. I assume that he has a mathematical formula based on all the variables including water temp and finished dough temp. I now know why I should have studied more math in school!

Mark
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Offline norma427

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2013, 12:10:14 PM »
Do you recall the reason why one wants a specific dough temp.

I assume it has to do with the fermentation equation. By looking at my ingredients etc, Peter can figure out how much IDY I should use. I assume that he has a mathematical formula based on all the variables including water temp and finished dough temp. I now know why I should have studied more math in school!

Mark

Mark,

I did do some advanced searches using Pete-zza name and also used the name Peter, but I can’t find right now why someone wants to get a specific final dough temperature, but I did find where Peter referenced linked articles by Tom Lehmann for commercial pizza operations and what final dough temperatures they should try to achieve.  I think, but am not sure, that the final dough temperatures should be about 5 degrees lower than commercial final dough temperatures because usually commercial coolers are kept lower than home refrigerators.

Peter is really good at looking at formulations and being able to know what to suggest.  I use the “poppy seed” trick most of the time to watch how my doughs are fermenting even if I do get the desired final dough temperature.

I should have studied math more in school too, because math is sure my downfall.  :-D

Norma

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2013, 02:15:24 PM »
Mark, from my own experimentations, I have noted that specific dough temps make little difference in the end crust and crumb especially amongst other more important variables like how the dough is made, hydration levels, fermentation length and temp, and baking temps. 

It is obvious that the water temp and dough temp does affect yeast performance and thus fermentation time.  But you can easily adjust either yeast amount or fermentation temps to accomodate your schedule.  The only advantage I see to achieving a specific end dough temp would be consistency.  Whether in a commercial setting or at home, a specific finishing dough temp with a specific amount of yeast used at a specific fermentation temp will take a certain amount of time before the dough is ready to be baked. 

I have also noted that there is little difference in end product with a finishing dough temp of even as much as 10 F as either dough will approximate the temp of the environment fairly quickly after mixing is done.  And once that happens, any advantage assumed will be minimized. 

I am by no means discouraging anyone from measuring dough temps, but I find it more of a mental exercise that bears little difference in the end product.  The only thing I would caution folks is to not have a too high of a dough temp (>120F?) as that could kill the yeast.   I could also see using higher finishing dough temps for a same day dough as the higher temps could speed up enzyme activity and produce a slightly more flavorful dough but that is subjective at best. 

Chau
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 02:18:17 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2013, 02:28:58 PM »
The only purpose of a specific dough temp is in a commercial environment where you are seeking consistency across random employees, ambient temperatures, etc.

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2013, 02:58:59 PM »
Mark, from my own experimentations, I have noted that specific dough temps make little difference in the end crust and crumb especially amongst other more important variables like how the dough is made, hydration levels, fermentation length and temp, and baking temps. 

It is obvious that the water temp and dough temp does affect yeast performance and thus fermentation time.  But you can easily adjust either yeast amount or fermentation temps to accomodate your schedule.  The only advantage I see to achieving a specific end dough temp would be consistency.  Whether in a commercial setting or at home, a specific finishing dough temp with a specific amount of yeast used at a specific fermentation temp will take a certain amount of time before the dough is ready to be baked. 

I have also noted that there is little difference in end product with a finishing dough temp of even as much as 10 F as either dough will approximate the temp of the environment fairly quickly after mixing is done.  And once that happens, any advantage assumed will be minimized. 

I am by no means discouraging anyone from measuring dough temps, but I find it more of a mental exercise that bears little difference in the end product.  The only thing I would caution folks is to not have a too high of a dough temp (>120F?) as that could kill the yeast.   I could also see using higher finishing dough temps for a same day dough as the higher temps could speed up enzyme activity and produce a slightly more flavorful dough but that is subjective at best. 

Chau

Chau, after the past couple hrs reading the archives, I have read the same. I have asked Peter if there is a fermentation formula where we could plug in all the variables and get reasonable answers . ie. at a certain ferm temp, with a certain amount of yeast and a specified amount of ferm time, the end result will be....

Interesting Sunday morning stuff.

Mark
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Offline waltertore

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #15 on: March 17, 2013, 03:02:29 PM »
I agree with much in replies 12/13.  The key is to get to know how dough acts with x amount of yeast and x amount of hydration, etc.  I was taught by old timers who would adjust dough ingredients based on the environment and when they needed it done by.   Currently I run a small wholesale/retail bakery that teaches special education students entry level job skills.  We have 2 blodgett 1000 deck gas ovens and our pizzas are continually growing in popularity.   I mix all the dough and always will.  My paid teaching assistant has no skill in the dough field and due to being a union worksite, there is nothing I can do about it.   She wants a concrete a, b, c, everytime recipe, and that is not how I operate with dough.  WIth cookies, brownies, muffins, and other non yeast rising baked goods, I have these kind of recipes.  My students, with the exception of one, will never get this art.   There are too many variables for an unskilled person and since we are a small operation, I do it all myself.   For instance we are only open during school hours so on Fridays I make my dough for Monday.  It is with cooler water and a bit less yeast that the 24 hour ferments we do during the week.  I guess if science and math turn you on, go for it, but for a home set up or 1 man operation like I have, simply knowing how dough reacts to specific ingredients makes it all quite easy for a consistent product.  I may be "wrong"  but I see dough as an art form and to standardize it makes it commerical.  My pies come out a bit different each day.  I love that and would get bored if each day the pies came out the same.  It is kind of like when I was big into surfing/body surfing- always seeking that next perfect wave/ride.........   We had a 3rd generation NYC pizzaria, restaurant, bakery owner in a couple weeks ago and he declared our stuff as good as any out there.  That meant a lot to me.  I guess like anything, time and more time, is the key to learning something.    Walter
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 04:15:42 PM by waltertore »
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #16 on: March 17, 2013, 04:28:16 PM »
Thank you Walter for your insight and age old wisdom. There definitely is much to be said for experience.
That's why I keep cooking, to get more experience, and feed myself and my wife, of course ;D


Mark
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #17 on: March 17, 2013, 04:32:24 PM »
Mark,
I will help you in 10 more posts...that will be half way down the next page.  ;)
Please don't ask why..... 8)

Bob
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #18 on: March 17, 2013, 04:37:33 PM »
Bob,      ??? ???    :-D :-D :-D   WHY?, sorry I had too >:D
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Offline waltertore

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #19 on: March 17, 2013, 05:36:41 PM »
Thank you Walter for your insight and age old wisdom. There definitely is much to be said for experience.
That's why I keep cooking, to get more experience, and feed myself and my wife, of course ;D


Mark

Hi Mark: Thanks!  The info age has its definite good points for sure but I prefer the discovery/apprentice way of learning.  Your pies look great and are better than most in Santa Rosa I bet! Do you know Gio's in Santa Rosa?  If you ever go by there ask for Ana and tell her Walter and Judy say hi from Ohio.  She is a Mexican girl(woman now) that we took in when she was 11.  She told us she is tossing pizzas there.  Walter
« Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 05:39:09 PM by waltertore »
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Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #20 on: March 17, 2013, 06:54:09 PM »
Hi Mark: Thanks!  The info age has its definite good points for sure but I prefer the discovery/apprentice way of learning.  Your pies look great and are better than most in Santa Rosa I bet! Do you know Gio's in Santa Rosa?  If you ever go by there ask for Ana and tell her Walter and Judy say hi from Ohio.  She is a Mexican girl(woman now) that we took in when she was 11.  She told us she is tossing pizzas there.  Walter

I have not been to Geo's but will look for it and Anna.

Mark
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #21 on: March 17, 2013, 10:27:31 PM »
Mark,

I essentially agree with what Tom (Tscarborough) and Chau have said about finished dough temperature. Finished dough temperatures can be used for both cold fermentation applications and ambient temperature applications, but finished dough temperature is usually associated more with commercial uses where it is important that the dough balls be ready when the pizza operator needs to use them to make pizza. Some time ago, I discussed some of the practical effects of finished dough temperatures in commercial settings in the first paragraph of Reply 2 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4747.msg40332.html#msg40332. Walter is also correct that it is frequently necessary to tweak dough formulations and finished dough temperatures to adapt to changing environmental conditions, such as seasonal changes.

However, what has not been said is why the usual recommended finished dough temperature is around 80-85 degrees F. As best I can tell, the reason is that temperatures in that range produce the optimum multiplication of the yeast and optimum fermentation. This can be seen in Table 4 at http://www.theartisan.net/dough_fermentation_and_temperature.htm. The 80-85 degrees F number that Tom Lehmann talks about is usually in the context of a commercial operation, for example, for a cold fermentation application, but it could also be used in an ambient temperature application. But, as Chau noted, in fairly short order the finished dough temperature will approach the ambient temperature. In your case, the finished dough temperature will approach the temperature of your cooler. So, its value is important if you want to achieve consistent results even in a home setting. I might add that the finished dough temperature number that is most often mentioned for a home setting is 75-80 degrees F. The reason for the lower range is because a typical home refrigerator runs several degrees warmer than a commercial cooler, as Norma mentioned.

With respect to a formula or equation into which you might enter fermentation temperatures and durations and be handed the amount of yeast to be used, I am not aware of any such formula or equation. However, there is a method that member November devised that allows one to do something similar, and can be used for a formulation such as you are now using. But to use his method, which is described in Reply 6 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,5028.msg42572.html#msg42572 and elsewhere in the same thread, you need to first conduct an experiment using your dough formulation. To do that, you would make your dough in the usual manner, with whatever amount of yeast you elect to use, note the finished dough temperature, and let the dough ferment at a specified temperature (in your case, the temperature of your cooler), and note the elapsed time for the dough to achieve a particular desired condition, such as the doubling of the volume of the dough (it can be more or less if you want). From that information, you can use a standard online scientific calculator, such as the one shown at http://www.eeweb.com/toolbox/calculator to calculate the Reference Rate. Once you have that number, you can change either or both of the fermentation temperature and fermentation duration, and use the method described by November to calculate the amount of yeast that applies to those values. Your example is simple because you are not using a series of temperature/time protocols as is discussed in Reply 6 referenced above. However, for future doughs using the new amounts of yeast, you will want to strive for the same finished dough temperature that you used to achieve the Reference Rate. So, for you in this case, the finished dough temperature is an important number.

As you might imagine, most people are unlikely to go through the above exercise. In most cases, they will find it easier to just do the yeast changes in an iterative manner until the desired results are achieved.

Turning now to your particular dough formulation, it appears the nominal protein content of your flour is 11.7%. Using member November’s Mixed Mass Percentage Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/, I calculate that the addition of 2% vital wheat gluten will produce a final blend with a protein content of 12.77%. With the addition of the vital wheat gluten (about 1 1/3 teaspoons), the hydration will be lowered to 61.8% but, unless you add one to one-and-a-half times the weight of the vital wheat gluten in additional water, the dough might feel somewhat less hydrated and on the dry side.

Using the expanded dough calculating tool with the 340-gram dough ball weight that you mentioned, your dough formulation looks like this from a baker’s percent standpoint:

Flour (100%):
Water (63%):
IDY (0.20%):
Salt (2%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (3.5%):
Vital Wheat Gluten (2%):
Total (170.7%):
199.18 g  |  7.03 oz | 0.44 lbs
125.48 g  |  4.43 oz | 0.28 lbs
0.4 g | 0.01 oz | 0 lbs | 0.13 tsp | 0.04 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.71 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
6.97 g | 0.25 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.53 tsp | 0.51 tbsp
3.98 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.33 tsp | 0.44 tbsp
340 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs | TF = N/A

Apart from adjusting the hydration of the dough as mentioned above to compensate for the effects of the vital wheat gluten, I think it is too early to offer any further suggestions. Small amounts of yeast and large amounts of oil can peacefully coexist but you may end up with a somewhat reduced oven spring. Judging from the photos you showed, you appear to be getting enough sugars from conversion of the damaged starch to feed the yeast, without the need to add table sugar to your dough. Usually, one needs to add either sugar of diastatic malt when using unmalted flours to be sure that the yeast is adequately fed and that there are sufficient residual sugars available at the time of baking to produce good coloration of the crust.

Peter

Offline mkevenson

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #22 on: March 17, 2013, 11:15:38 PM »
Peter, 100 thanks to you for your efforts to organize this reply. It will take some time for me to digest the contents. Your help in all matters pizza formulation are priceless. I am honored to be the recipient of such knowledge.


Mark
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Is this too much IDY ?
« Reply #23 on: March 18, 2013, 09:09:45 AM »
Peter, 100 thanks to you for your efforts to organize this reply. It will take some time for me to digest the contents. Your help in all matters pizza formulation are priceless. I am honored to be the recipient of such knowledge.

Mark,

Thank you very much for the kind words but they really weren't necessary. I just hope that you get the results you are looking for.

I forgot to mention in my last post that you can use the poppy seed trick if you decide to conduct another experiment with your dough to determine the Reference Rate that I discussed. As I mentioned, your case is a fairly simple one since you would only using basically one fermentation value (within a range of 55-59 degrees F) and a duration of fermentation that would corespond to the desired condition of the dough that you are after. A doubling of the volume of the dough seems to be acceptable to most people but, as Norma has shown, it can be more than that. It can also be less, if desired. In theory, once you get the desired end results, you can manipulate them within a fairly wide range for future purposes. Where things can get difficult is where the temperatures during fermentation vary a lot. Even in my refrigerator, I see fairly wide swings in temperature as the door is opened and closed several times a day, things are added and removed, and even different locations in the refrigerator can have different temperatures. To the extent that you can control your cooler so that it operates at pretty much one temperature, so much the better.

Have a good time in Vegas.

Peter