Author Topic: Kneading times and finished dough temp  (Read 784 times)

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Offline pie eye

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Kneading times and finished dough temp
« on: March 11, 2013, 12:38:10 PM »
I was reading an old post where Tom chimed in that he likes to see finished kneading temps come in around 80-85 degrees.

I have currently been shooting for 73-75 (because I sometimes get good results). To achieve that temp, I need to start with water that's 77 degrees and then I mix for 7 minutes in my Kitchen Aid on the 1st or sometimes 2nd speed.

If I were to achieve 80-85, that would mean using 90 degree water and would that kill the yeast? Or would I need to mix/knead longer? The time would likely go from a 7 minute knead to 15+ minutes. My concern with that would be toughness.

Thanks in advance! School me experts......


Offline tombiasi

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2013, 12:43:53 PM »
I was reading an old post where Tom chimed in that he likes to see finished kneading temps come in around 80-85 degrees.

I have currently been shooting for 73-75 (because I sometimes get good results). To achieve that temp, I need to start with water that's 77 degrees and then I mix for 7 minutes in my Kitchen Aid on the 1st or sometimes 2nd speed.

If I were to achieve 80-85, that would mean using 90 degree water and would that kill the yeast? Or would I need to mix/knead longer? The time would likely go from a 7 minute knead to 15+ minutes. My concern with that would be toughness.

Thanks in advance! School me experts......

I am not one of those experts whom you implored for schooling but I have been starting with 77 F. water. It drops a little when I pour it in the SS mixing bowl but rises from bowel friction. In the end I have 80 F. dough. No, 90 F. won't kill the yeast.

Tom

Offline tombiasi

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2013, 12:44:38 PM »
I meant bowl. >:(

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2013, 12:57:13 PM »
90 degree water would not kill the yeast but water at or near 120 will most certainly do damage. Longer mixing time is not what you want, it will only oxidize your dough and make it hard to brown and also lack flavor. Also, in reference to mixing time a general rule of thumb is that (more hydration/longer mix needed to form gluten)(low hydration/shorter mix needed to form gluten). However, I keep the mechanical mixing to a minimum, I like to finish it off with a dose of hand kneading after I combine the ingredients (with intervals of rest in between until the desired texture is achieved)

That being said, I think you're off to a good start with the water temperature to achieve the desired dough temp you're after. Always remember, practice, passion and persistence.

Good Luck,
Anthony
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.

Offline pie eye

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2013, 06:48:44 PM »
Thanks for your replies so far. I guess I should explain why I start with 77 degree water, but only end up with 73 degree dough. I barely mix all of my ingredients and then do a 15-20 min autolyse.

I suppose I could get right where I need to be without that.

This is probably worthy of an entirely different post, but how will my dough change without the autolyse?

Think I will try it without. I will achieve the 80-85 degree mark, but it will change something else. Maybe I will try 1 dough ball where I do no autolyse and 1 where I use 85+ degree water. Maybe I need to finally post some pix on this site, because I bet that will be an interesting experiment.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #5 on: March 12, 2013, 07:30:47 PM »
pie eye,

The 80-85 degrees F number that Tom Lehmann talks about is with respect to a commercial cooler. For a home refrigerator, which is less efficient than a commercial cooler, you should use 75-80 degrees F. That is a number I got from reading Tom's posts several years ago.

Peter

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #6 on: March 12, 2013, 07:33:56 PM »
90 degree water would not kill the yeast but water at or near 120 will most certainly do damage.

Anthony,

Water at 120 degrees F will harm the yeast if put in direct contact with the yeast. But if the yeast is mixed in with the flour, the flour buffers the yeast and can tolerate 120 degrees F water. Some packets of ADY even give that option.

Peter

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #7 on: March 13, 2013, 12:22:23 PM »
Peter,
 I should have specified, my apologies. I was thinking more along the lines of cake yeast, as I work in a commercial environment, which in my opinion should be dissolved in water before using (whether utilizing a preferment of some sort or direct mix). However, I have used the ADY as well and you're right, it can be directly incorporated into the flour and you would be able to raise the temperature of the water.

Anthony
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Offline The Dough Doctor

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #8 on: March 13, 2013, 12:53:03 PM »
I'm not sure I'm correctly following the last reply, but industry standard is to crumble the compressed/fresh/cake yeast into the flour and then begin mixing. There is no need to suspend it in the water unless you are mixing the dough by hand. If you are mixing the dough by hand you can put the cake yeast right into the cold water, or warm water, whatever you're using and stir it to suspend the yeast and you're good to go. Active dry yeast (ADY) should always be pre-hydrated in warm water (100 to 105F) for about 10-minutes before it is added to the dough. Once hydrated, it can either be added to the water in the mixing bowl, or it can be added to the flour just before you begin mixing. Instant dry yeast (IDY) is the one that can be added directly to the flour just as it is, but again, if you are mixing the dough by hand, you will need to pre-hydrate the IDY. To hydrate IDY put it into a small quantity of warm water (95F) and allow it to hydrate for 10-minutes, then you can add it either to the water or to the dry flour just as you would the hydrated ADY.
Regardless of which form of yeast that you're using, it is not a good idea to allow the yeast to come into direct contact with either the salt and/or sugar while you're assembling the dough, BUT IDY when used without pre-hydrating, can be put into direct contact with salt and/or sugar without any problems. This is commonly done by pizzerias when they make "goodie bags" containing salt, sugar (if used), IDY and a little flour.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline PizzaJerk

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Re: Kneading times and finished dough temp
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2013, 12:15:17 PM »
Tom,
  In reference to the subject of fresh yeast only. I have always crumbled the yeast into the water and not the flour and have honestly never heard of such a practice as to add fresh yeast directly to the flour. It will not dissolve/soften so readily and to mix it directly into the flour would yield you small specs of undissolved yeast (as if they've been coated with the flour) throughout the dough (I've experienced this), which is absolutely undesirable. However, I'm sure it has been done and am not debating or doubting your expertise which is of course on a much higher level than my own. I just do not agree that it is "industry standard". I also do not understand why there is a difference in putting the yeast in water if hand mixing as opposed to mechanical mixing utilizing direct incorporation into the flour. For me, it is the same for both as I have mixed both by hand and mechanically, always taking care to soften the yeast in warm water first.

My question is, in your opinion, is there an advantage/disadvantage either way?

Anthony
May I glorify the Lord in all that I do.