Author Topic: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza  (Read 100443 times)

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Offline CRHawkeye

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #300 on: March 27, 2008, 07:08:31 PM »
I think that loo makes a valid point but I believe the cause of the wetness in the dough is much more fundamental--overfermentation.

loo is correct that butter contains water. For salted butter, it is 15.7%; for unsalted butter, it is 17.9%. If one does the math, for four tablespoons of butter the amount of water comes to around 0.34 ounces. That converts to about two teaspoons. Since the basic recipe is stated in volumes, two teaspoons of water can easily get lost in 2 1/2 cups of flour and one cup of water measured out volumetrically.

I am pretty confident that what happened to CRHawkeye's dough is that it overfermented. The original recipe calls for one teaspoon of ADY. By my estimate, the rate of use of the ADY is around 1%. That amount of yeast is too high for a period of room temperature fermentation that extends out to around 24 hours. It may be perfectly sufficient for a period of a few hours of room temperature fermentation, as originally stated in the recipe, and it may also be fine for a subsequent period of refrigeration that will cool down the dough and its rate of fermentation. However, extending the fermentation at room temperature for almost a day, even if part of it is at a fairly cool room temperature of 50-60 degrees F, and particularly after using warm water and a 4-5 hour period of vigorous room temperature fermentation, can easily push the dough to a state of overfermentation or very very close to it. The release of the water from the dough is what causes the wetness. This happens due to the action of protease enzymes in the flour/dough to attack the gluten structure and to weaken it, causing the water bond to be broken and water to be released into the dough, making it wet and slack. Often, salt is used to slow down the action of the protease enzymes, which are sensitive to salt. However, the recipe used by CRHawkeye does not call for salt. So, the protease enzymes were free to attack the gluten with relative ease and to do so more quickly.

I described some of the symptoms of an overfermented dough at Reply 1 at pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3203.msg27125.html#msg27125. In that case, the dough in question was a cold fermented dough. However, the same symptoms will be exhibited by a dough that has been overfermented at room temperature. One of the few types of doughs that can tolerate a long room temperature fermentation is one leavened with a natural starter, and in a small quantity. Even a naturally-leavened dough can overferment and exhibit the same symptoms of overfermentation as doughs leavened with commercial yeast.

Peter

FWIW, I did add a bit of salt to my recipe for the dough. Half teaspoon. But I think your point stands. The dough seemed to come out wetter than it started. Your explanation makes sense.

That said, absolutely enjoyed the taste that was gained this way. Much better than the dough that only sat for 4 hours. (even though it did work quite a bit and doubled up, had a fermented smell, etc...)



Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #301 on: March 27, 2008, 07:13:13 PM »
CRHawkeye,

An advantage you had is that you were making a deep-dish dough. Even with a lot of water in the dough, it may be possible to either roll it out (you may need some bench flour) or press it out in the pan. If you were making a standard flat dough that requires stretching out to final size, you would be in much more trouble.

Peter

Offline CRHawkeye

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #302 on: March 27, 2008, 07:17:27 PM »
CRHawkeye,

An advantage you had is that you were making a deep-dish dough. Even with a lot of water in the dough, it may be possible to either roll it out (you may need some bench flour) or press it out in the pan. If you were making a standard flat dough that requires stretching out to final size, you would be in much more trouble.

Peter

Certainly wouldn't have been able to do that...

Suppose if I threw it in the fridge for the full 24 hour time I'd still get that nicely fermented taste? In the end, that's all I want -- good taste. Wouldn't mind creating a dough that cooked quicker and wasn't such a mess, though.

Offline Randy

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #303 on: March 27, 2008, 07:36:49 PM »
We have Buzz to thank for the short kneading time instructions in our CDPs.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #304 on: March 27, 2008, 08:24:20 PM »
Suppose if I threw it in the fridge for the full 24 hour time I'd still get that nicely fermented taste? In the end, that's all I want -- good taste. Wouldn't mind creating a dough that cooked quicker and wasn't such a mess, though.

There are different ways of getting the byproducts of fermentation that contribute to crust flavor, but it is hard to achieve the levels of such byproducts that you will get if you allow the dough to overferment.

One way of getting added flavors of fermentation is to use a small amount of yeast and a long room temperature fermentation. I recently made a dough that used a bit less than 0.14% IDY (less than 1/8 t.) and let the dough ferment at a room temperature of around 68 degrees F for about a day. During that time, the dough doubled and tripled and I had to punch it down twice because it was so active. The crust flavors were good but they would not have been as pronounced as what I would have gotten had I let the dough ferment to the point of overfermentation. Had that happened, I would have gotten great crust flavors but only if I would have been able to actually shape and stretch the dough out to make a pizza out of it.

Another way of getting added flavors of fermentation is to use a small amount of yeast, as above, and let the dough cold ferment for several days. Even then, you are not likely to get the degree of fermentation flavors in the finished crust that you achieved with your dough. I have made standard cold fermented doughs that lasted for over 15 days and got very good flavors of fermentation, but 15 days is longer than most people are willing to wait for their pizza. However, working with doughs that old (I had another go out to 23 days), I learned a lot about flavor contributing byproducts of fermentation, among other things. The results of my efforts to that end were discussed in detail in http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.0.html.

You can also use a natural starter, either in leavening quantities or in preferment quantities, to achieve enhanced crust flavors. One of our members, Bluesology, recently did the latter at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,6444.msg55238.html#msg55238. I have also used natural starters/preferments before to make deep-dish doughs with good results. I reported on the results elsewhere on the forum, including at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1585.msg14755.html#msg14755 (Reply 22).

Another possibility is to convert the recipe you used to a preferment application, such as a poolish or sponge. I have never done that before for a deep-dish dough recipe but I am fairly confident that it can be done. In fact, that would be a fun experiment.

Peter


Offline lorilou

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #305 on: April 08, 2008, 06:34:40 PM »
I returned to this website on 3-23-08 after a few years off and  I have had 6 wonderful killer Uno's type pizzas since Easter..  We are in pizza heaven for sure..

Using the basic dough recipe of DKM's at the beginning of this thread has made our pizza dreams come true..The addition of corn oil in the recipe ( I also use it in the pan) with the dough having that fried buttery taste is so good!!!!

There is an Italian deli/grocery in Scottsdale AZ  about 2 miles from our house - De Falco's - and they sell the Escalon canned tomatoes so no more shipping either!!!!

I just contributed (my second time) to this website mainly as a thank you for all of the money it has saved me..No more unnecessary trips to Chicago..no more humping coolers with dry ice and Uno's through the airport...no more shipped orders from Lou's which never taste as good as the real time pizza...no more self pity sessions full of pizza envy for Uno's...DKM - you have nailed it...PRICELESS!!!!!!

I keep experimenting with little bits of sugar, salt, different yeasts and flours but so far, each pizza just keeps getting better and better...nothing but net....!!!!!!

Most people have lots of lofty goals they have yet to achieve in their lives...I have now satisfied one of mine...

Offline DKM

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #306 on: April 09, 2008, 07:51:46 PM »
Thanks. :)

Just keep experimenting until you have the best "lorilou" Deep Dish you can make.  Then share the recipe ;D :chef:

DKM
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Offline nanfitz

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #307 on: May 02, 2008, 03:05:17 PM »
Num! I am trying your recipe tonight for dinner. I'll follow up tomorrow.

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #308 on: August 23, 2008, 05:36:51 PM »
I'm in the process of trying this dough right now.  I found that it was extremely sticky with only 2.5C AP.  I am using King Arthur Unbleached AP.  I ended up adding quite a bit of flour, around 1/2C despite allowing the initial flour/water enough time to hydrate the flour before adding the additional flour and oil.  Anyone else have this problem?  I've made a fair amount of bread over the years and so I was a bit surprised at how much I added.  It was still very sticky after the two 1/4C additions.  Your thoughts, please.

David


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #309 on: August 23, 2008, 07:06:16 PM »
David,

If you read the series of posts starting with Reply 53 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg24680.html#msg24680 and ending with Reply 59, you will note that DKM uses a "heavy" hand in measuring out the flour (see Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg21059.html#msg21059). No doubt, you used a "lighter" hand in measuring out your 2 1/2 cups of flour. If you have a scale, you might try using around 14 ounces of flour for the recipe.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 07:10:58 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #310 on: August 23, 2008, 07:49:35 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  I just made another batch for the fridge that used your percentages and it came out as I would have otherwise expected.  I somehow missed your breakdown of the recipe in the posts.  Thanks, I'll let you know how it worked out.

David

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #311 on: August 23, 2008, 07:58:07 PM »
David,

Which percentages are you referring to?

If we assume that one of DKM's cups of flour weighs 5.5 ounces, and we also assume that one cup of water weighs around 8.1-8.2 ounces, it should be pretty straightforward to convert DKM's recipe to baker's percent format. Originally, DKM's recipe did not call for salt, but he later indicated that he was planning to add 1/2 teaspoon.

In your case, what size pan will you be using, and do you plan to use salt?

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #312 on: August 23, 2008, 08:41:55 PM »
Peter, I was referring to the percentages you posted for a 14" pan -- a well worn Chicago Metallic, traditional, i.e., not non-stick.  It's well seasoned.  As for the salt, yes I'm adding the salt.  I think it is infrequent that bread doesn't need some salt, although some traditional Italian loaves have none.  One thing I haven't found within the posts is whether anyone is par-baking the crust prior to building the pie.  The Chicago Pizza book has all the pros par-baking, but the recipe here doesn't specifiy one way or the other.  My inclination is to par-bake the crust.

David
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 08:47:45 PM by dbgtr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #313 on: August 23, 2008, 09:01:51 PM »
David,

The formulation is the one at Reply 79 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg30514.html#msg30514. I asked because that formulation is for a 14" pizza, whereas DKM's recipe is for a 13" pizza. Also, I used 1.5% salt, whereas 1/2 teaspoon salt in DKM's recipe comes to about 0.72%.

I will be interested in your results, along with photos if that is possible. If the results are in line with the results that DKM achieved, I can post a conversion of DKM's original recipe to baker's percent format, with and without salt. I can also calculate the corresponding thickness factors, which one can then use in the deep-dish dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/dd_calculator.html to ascertain the quantities of ingredients needed to make any size pizza, using either a straight-sided pan or a sloping-sided pan. At the time I posted in Reply 79, the tool did not exist.

My recollection is that DKM's 13" pan is straight-sided, and that he pushes the dough up the sides of the pan by 1 1/2".

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #314 on: August 23, 2008, 09:06:04 PM »
Peter, my pan has slightly flared sides.  It's 14" at the top, but only 13.5" at the bottom. 

What about the par-baking?

David

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #315 on: August 23, 2008, 09:09:12 PM »
One thing I haven't found within the posts is whether anyone is par-baking the crust prior to building the pie.  The Chicago Pizza book has all the pros par-baking, but the recipe here doesn't specify one way or the other.  My inclination is to par-bake the crust.

David,

Here is an example of a thread that discusses par-baking of deep-dish crusts: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1990.msg17541.html#msg17541. However, most of our members do not do that, and I am pretty certain that DKM does not. Where I usually read about par-baking deep-dish crusts is in commercial applications, particularly where the volume of pies is high and it makes sense to have par-baked crusts on hand to meet the volume and reduce the bake time. Par-baking crusts is also common in the production of frozen deep-dish pizzas.

Peter
« Last Edit: August 23, 2008, 09:28:27 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #316 on: August 23, 2008, 09:13:10 PM »
Peter, my pan has slightly flared sides.  It's 14" at the top, but only 13.5" at the bottom. 

David,

The deep-dish dough calculating tool I mentioned permits entering the dimensions for a sloping-sided pan. If you like the results using the dough formulation you used, we can easily recalculate the quantities of ingredients needed for your precise pan.

Peter


Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #317 on: August 23, 2008, 09:43:09 PM »
Got it.  The one I'm doing right now is the original recipe, so it's going to be a mess, but mistakes are often better for what they show you.  The original recipe is clearly too small for the pan.  I won't have the thickness factor, and because the dough was so oily due to the proportions, it'll be very biscuit-y, but not exactly what I was shooting for, but I'm hungry and its already 9:30!  I've got the wrong tomatoes -- they were supposedly crushed but they were more puree.  I'm originally from Pittsburgh, so Penn Mac was like going to the corner store in that it wasn't exotic.  I'll be there in a few weeks so I'll pickup supplies while I'm there.  The real test will be tomorrow when I can try the corrected recipe.  I was very careful with the temp, getting a 105F initial water temp and a final temp around 82F before it got oiled and slipped in a ziplock for the night.

I'll follow-up tomorrow. Thanks for the help --db

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #318 on: August 23, 2008, 10:02:28 PM »
David,

I ran some numbers through the deep-dish dough calculating tool for your pan dimensions and the amount of dough needed for your pan is about 1.59 ounces less than for a 14" straight-sided pan. So, you can either lop off 1.59 ounces of dough from your dough batch when time comes to use it, or else run the dough up the sides of your pan a little bit more than 1 1/2". I assumed that your pan is 2" deep, as measured on the slope. But even it if is slightly more or less, the numbers won't change all that much.

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #319 on: August 24, 2008, 10:14:03 AM »
Peter,

The pan is actually 1.5" deep as measured from the inside corner of the pan to the top rim.

The pizza last night while disappointing in many respects, was clearly superior to those I've made from the Chicago Pizza Book, which I found, with the addition of the cornmeal, made the dough too heavy.  The other conventions from that book, tossed aside in this recipe, -- kneading the dough after the first rise and then trying to spread it in the pan -- made the dough much more tender, which I liked.

I did dock and par-bake the shell, but have questions about that.  For example, you suggested this was unnecessary.  In the case of the pie made last night with the wrong tomatoes -- too much liquid, not having par-baked the crust and docking it would have resulted in an even more dense/soggy crust.  The other technique we didn't address is whether to allow the formed crust to rest for 30 minutes, covered, prior to building and baking.

A couple of observations about last night's pizza which was built like the traditional "Uno," i.e., mozzarella, sausage, mushroom, peppers, red onion, pepperoni, tomatoes.

Although I used a pretty good pepperoni, small casing, big flavor, I found in the context of the pizza last night that it was over powering, despite the fact that I didn't overload the pie with topping.  Are there pepperoni's that are better suited to chicago style versus new york?

I didn't have sliceable mozzarella, so I used a good grade of low-moisture, part skim, grated.  It was a little saltier than I like, but much better than the stuff from your typical grocery store that seems to have too much moisture and an incredible amount of salt.

In the context of a chicago-style pie, is there an effect on the crust from the use of sliced mozzarella versus grated from the standpoint of sliced mozzarella will likely protect the dough from moisture in a way that the grated cheese cannot?  Will that effect the tendency of the dough to be compacted from the toppings?  I did oil the base of the par-baked crust prior to assembly.

That's it for observations for round one.  Round two will be this evening.  I'll see if I can't take some photos.


« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 11:24:55 AM by dbgtr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #320 on: August 24, 2008, 10:56:55 AM »
David,

You indicated disappointment with the pizza, but it wasn't entirely clear whether such disappointment was mainly with the crust or with ancillary aspects. Can you provide clarification on this point?

As for tempering the dough in the pan before dressing, many professionals who use par-baked crusts have specialized equipment that allows the dough to proof at a set temperature and humidity for a specified period of time, for example, 45 minutes to an hour. In a home setting, you can use your microwave oven as a "proofing" box by putting a large measuring cup (e.g., a 1-qt. Pyrex glass measuring cup) of boiling water into your microwave oven along with the dough in the pan.

I will leave to others with much greater experience and knowledge about the deep-dish style than I to address the rest of your questions. However, with respect to the form of mozzarella cheese, my recollection is that professionals use both methods--sliced and shredded.

I re-ran the numbers through the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the additional pan information you provided, and got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (59.6%):
ADY (0.97%):
Salt (1.5%):
Corn Oil (14.36%):
Total (176.43%):
418.14 g  |  14.75 oz | 0.92 lbs
249.21 g  |  8.79 oz | 0.55 lbs
4.06 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
6.27 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
60.04 g | 2.12 oz | 0.13 lbs | 4.45 tbsp | 0.28 cups
737.72 g | 26.02 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = 0.132

The difference in dough weight as compared with a 14" straight-sided pan is 1.56 ounces, which is just a little bit less than the 1.59 ounce figure I previously gave you. So, as you can see, the depth of the pan in your case had little effect on the total dough weight. In your case, if you follow DKM's instructions, you would run the dough up the sides of your pan to the top edge.

Peter

Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #321 on: August 24, 2008, 11:14:42 AM »
Peter, the disappointment in last night's run was a combination of a dough that wasn't optimized, too much the wrong tomatoes with too much water, and the overpowering flavor of the pepperoni.  In the case of the pepperoni, I like a full flavored pepperoni, but for some reason and perhaps in this context its not the right choice.  It's entirely possible that the combination of the sauce helped to emphasize flavors in the pepperoni that were in turn overpowering.  I had too much garlic in the sauce and need to cut back.

In the case of the dough, it was that it was too moist and elastic and as a result I had to work it more than I would otherwise and it lead it to be tougher than it might have otherwise.  The excess moisture both in the dough itself as well as from the poor choice in tomatoes required a longer bake time, and that lead to a harder and denser crust.  I liked the salt in the dough, but given that the pepperoni was particularly salty (I added no salt to the tomatoes), it didn't help.

All of this is in the context of a nexus of a less than optimal dough, and less than optimal ingredients, so I do not want this to be reflective of the potential of this recipe, but rather the necessary adjustments one makes when adapting recipes to the environment, equipment and ingredients available.

Tonight's run will be a better test of the recipe because I'm going to get different tomatoes, an will have the revised dough to play with.  I'm hoping between now and tonight someone chimes in on the proofing/par-baking issues.

David
« Last Edit: August 24, 2008, 11:22:24 AM by dbgtr »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #322 on: August 24, 2008, 11:38:21 AM »
David,

Out of curiosity, is this the Chicago pizza book that you referred to in earlier posts: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Great-Chicago-Style-Pizza-Cookbook/Jr-Bruno/e/9780809257300?

In due course, you may want to try using either the Escalon 6-in-1s or Stanislaus Tomato Magic canned "fresh-pack" tomatoes for the deep-dish style. There are other tomatoes that can be used, but the above brands are among the most popular among our members for that style, and also used by several of the places in the Chicago area. The 6-in-1s can be ordered directly from Escalon at http://www.escalon.net/ if you can't find them in stores near you.

Peter


Offline dbgtr

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #323 on: August 24, 2008, 11:43:15 AM »
Peter,

Yes, the book is The Great Chicago Style Pizza Book, by Pasquale Bruno, Jr.

David

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza
« Reply #324 on: August 24, 2008, 11:55:42 AM »
Yes, the book is The Great Chicago Style Pizza Book, by Pasquale Bruno, Jr.

David,

I do not have that book but it was reviewed by others on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,227.msg1673/topicseen.html#msg1673. Generally speaking, Pat Bruno is not one of the more popular deep-dish writers among the members of this forum, many of whom have lived in the Chicago area for a long time and have become experts in their own right in the Chicago deep-dish style (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1292.msg11594/topicseen.html#msg11594 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg23156/topicseen.html#msg23156).

Peter