Author Topic: Uno/Malnati Style Deep Dish Pizza (Read 83260 times)

Pete-zza · « **Reply #320 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:56:55 AM »

David,

You indicated disappointment with the pizza, but it wasn't entirely clear whether such disappointment was mainly with the crust or with ancillary aspects. Can you provide clarification on this point?

As for tempering the dough in the pan before dressing, many professionals who use par-baked crusts have specialized equipment that allows the dough to proof at a set temperature and humidity for a specified period of time, for example, 45 minutes to an hour. In a home setting, you can use your microwave oven as a "proofing" box by putting a large measuring cup (e.g., a 1-qt. Pyrex glass measuring cup) of boiling water into your microwave oven along with the dough in the pan.

I will leave to others with much greater experience and knowledge about the deep-dish style than I to address the rest of your questions. However, with respect to the form of mozzarella cheese, my recollection is that professionals use both methods--sliced and shredded.

I re-ran the numbers through the deep-dish dough calculating tool with the additional pan information you provided, and got the following:

Flour (100%):
Water (59.6%):
ADY (0.97%):
Salt (1.5%):
Corn Oil (14.36%):
Total (176.43%):

418.14 g | 14.75 oz | 0.92 lbs
249.21 g | 8.79 oz | 0.55 lbs
4.06 g | 0.14 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.07 tsp | 0.36 tbsp
6.27 g | 0.22 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.12 tsp | 0.37 tbsp
60.04 g | 2.12 oz | 0.13 lbs | 4.45 tbsp | 0.28 cups
737.72 g | 26.02 oz | 1.63 lbs | TF = 0.132

The difference in dough weight as compared with a 14" straight-sided pan is 1.56 ounces, which is just a little bit less than the 1.59 ounce figure I previously gave you. So, as you can see, the depth of the pan in your case had little effect on the total dough weight. In your case, if you follow DKM's instructions, you would run the dough up the sides of your pan to the top edge.

Peter

dbgtr · « **Reply #321 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:14:42 AM »

Peter, the disappointment in last night's run was a combination of a dough that wasn't optimized, too much the wrong tomatoes with too much water, and the overpowering flavor of the pepperoni. In the case of the pepperoni, I like a full flavored pepperoni, but for some reason and perhaps in this context its not the right choice. It's entirely possible that the combination of the sauce helped to emphasize flavors in the pepperoni that were in turn overpowering. I had too much garlic in the sauce and need to cut back.

In the case of the dough, it was that it was too moist and elastic and as a result I had to work it more than I would otherwise and it lead it to be tougher than it might have otherwise. The excess moisture both in the dough itself as well as from the poor choice in tomatoes required a longer bake time, and that lead to a harder and denser crust. I liked the salt in the dough, but given that the pepperoni was particularly salty (I added no salt to the tomatoes), it didn't help.

All of this is in the context of a nexus of a less than optimal dough, and less than optimal ingredients, so I do not want this to be reflective of the potential of this recipe, but rather the necessary adjustments one makes when adapting recipes to the environment, equipment and ingredients available.

Tonight's run will be a better test of the recipe because I'm going to get different tomatoes, an will have the revised dough to play with. I'm hoping between now and tonight someone chimes in on the proofing/par-baking issues.

David

Pete-zza · « **Reply #322 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:38:21 AM »

David,

Out of curiosity, is this the Chicago pizza book that you referred to in earlier posts: http://search.barnesandnoble.com/The-Great-Chicago-Style-Pizza-Cookbook/Jr-Bruno/e/9780809257300?

In due course, you may want to try using either the Escalon 6-in-1s or Stanislaus Tomato Magic canned "fresh-pack" tomatoes for the deep-dish style. There are other tomatoes that can be used, but the above brands are among the most popular among our members for that style, and also used by several of the places in the Chicago area. The 6-in-1s can be ordered directly from Escalon at http://www.escalon.net/ if you can't find them in stores near you.

Peter

dbgtr · « **Reply #323 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:43:15 AM »

Peter,

Yes, the book is The Great Chicago Style Pizza Book, by Pasquale Bruno, Jr.

David

Pete-zza · « **Reply #324 on:** August 24, 2008, 11:55:42 AM »

Quote from: dbgtr on August 24, 2008, 11:43:15 AM

Yes, the book is The Great Chicago Style Pizza Book, by Pasquale Bruno, Jr.

David,

I do not have that book but it was reviewed by others on the forum at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,227.msg1673/topicseen.html#msg1673. Generally speaking, Pat Bruno is not one of the more popular deep-dish writers among the members of this forum, many of whom have lived in the Chicago area for a long time and have become experts in their own right in the Chicago deep-dish style (e.g., see http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,1292.msg11594/topicseen.html#msg11594 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2403.msg23156/topicseen.html#msg23156).

Peter

DKM · « **Reply #325 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:08:12 PM »

For the record I do not par-bake my deep-dish crust.

I'm hoping to make a video of my efforts, I just have to wait on cam.

DKM

loowaters · « **Reply #326 on:** August 24, 2008, 04:09:54 PM »

David, the use of shredded cheese did nothing to help keep some of that moisture from seeping down to that crust. Sliced cheese creates a nice seal from that happening. The only case of Chicago Style pies using shredded that I can think of is Giordano's, but they're stuffed pizzas so toppings and sauce go on top of the thin top layer of crust. Also, pre-shredded mozz doesn't come together as well under all those toppings. I believe it's due to the cellulose (or whatever it is they use) used to prevent the cheese from clumping in the package.

You don't need to par bake the crust at all. While I've never attempted this recipe (mine has more oil and a much lower hyrdration), I know it's close enough to what I do use that a par bake is not necessary. Drain those tomatoes and your moisture situation should get better but remember, you also had a lot of toppings on the pie that contain plenty of moisture, too.

The pepperoni issue is one that will just take some trial and error on how much to use. If it's a thicker cut, try thinner. Try to nuke some oil out of it in the microwave before putting it on the pie, the oils are strong. You'll get it, just keep plugging away.

Loo

dbgtr · « **Reply #327 on:** August 24, 2008, 05:49:37 PM »

DKM and loowaters, thanks for the suggestions. I'll try it without par-baking. But do either of you proof your dough after fitting it to the pan?

As for the tomatoes, I did a little perusing of the forum and found a discussion that indicating certain Cento and Harris Teeter tomatoes with a ROA designation on them were pretty good, so I'm giving them a whirl as well.

I watched the videos of Ruth Gresser (http://www.monkeysee.com/ruthgresser and noticed that Pizzeria Paradiso in DC uses the Margherita brand of pepperoni. Penn Mac carries both, but has them in different departments on their site, with the Ezzo in the pizza supplies and the Margherita in the Deli. http://www.pennmac.com/items/354 Anyone had this?

David

DKM · « **Reply #328 on:** August 24, 2008, 06:23:39 PM »

Loo is correct that that pre-shredded doesn't come together since the cheese is treated to keep it from clumping.

I do not proof my dough once it has been pressed into the pan, but top it and put it into the oven right away.

DKM

dbgtr · « **Reply #329 on:** August 24, 2008, 07:21:20 PM »

Thanks, DKM. --db

dbgtr · « **Reply #330 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:28:01 PM »

Ok, here's the field report. Completely different thing! I've posted the build below, but here are my thoughts. The dough was still a little too wet, as it was a pain in the ass to get it to stretch out and stay where I put it. I'm inclined to reduce the hydration a little. I don't think I want to add more oil, but who knows I may change my mind. The crust was much better -- would have been better if I had remembered to turn the temperature down. I had it pegged, so 550 for much of the baking. Baking it slower would have driven off more moisture without making the bottom of the pie somewhat al carbon.

The Cento tomatoes, recommended by Scottr, were very good. These are specifically italian and have a code, ROA on the can. I drained, deseeded, crushed with my fingers, and drained a little more. I only used one can and that seemed to be perfect as it didn't overwhelm the other ingredients. I added a tsp each basil and oregano, about a 1/2 tsp salt, and a little pepper.

Notice in the photos that although I have some topping, the mushrooms were sauteed, the onions were thinly sliced and the peppers moderately julienned. The sausage I schmushed in the same pan I sauteed the mushrooms, hence some partial cooking. I think I'm inclined to cook the sausage ahead of time too to reduce the moisture in the ingredients. The pepperoni was fine, so it must have been a combination of the ingredients that made it overpowering before.

The pie baked for about 35 minutes, which at the 550F for most of the bake was too long. There was some "juice" from the toppings that drained on the board after I cut it, hence the desire to par-cook the sausage and use a lower cooking temp/longer bake time . It tasted great, so were moving in the right direction. Here are the photos.

Pete-zza · « **Reply #331 on:** August 24, 2008, 10:59:49 PM »

David,

It looks like you are well on your way. Now, if you'd like, you can use the deep-dish dough calculating tool to modify the dough formulation any way you want. I originally calculated a thickness factor of 0.132 for purposes of using the tool, but that value can be increased or decreased in order to get a thicker or thinner crust, respectively.

I hope you will keep us informed of your progress, and especially if you come up with an optimum dough formulation from your perspective. You might also want to try some of the other deep-dish dough formulations on the forum.

Peter

dbgtr · « **Reply #332 on:** August 25, 2008, 09:19:22 AM »

Peter,

I think the dough calculation was pretty close. It got a little thick in the corners, but that's not unusual, and the base was a little uneven from the 5 minutes it took to get the dough to behave. Does it make sense that I should reduce the hydration? Would that help with the shaping? It's my understanding that most of the shops shape in the pan, but others use a sheeter to get it close like making a pie and then transfer it to the pan. Would the dough get any tougher from stretching and transferring? I didn't oil the sides of the pan, just the bottom and used a health amount of oil but brushed it around so it wasn't pooling. Does the lower temp/longer bake time make sense?

--db

Pete-zza · « **Reply #333 on:** August 25, 2008, 10:01:03 AM »

David,

The deep-dish dough calculating tool was designed to compensate for some of the "bunching" of the dough in corners but some of that effect is inevitable because of different pan designs, different pan coating materials and adherence characteristics, etc.

The problem of getting the dough to behave and not shrink when formed or placed in the pan is a common one, as you will see if you read this thread: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3222.0.html. I believe that most of the "solutions" that the members have tried, and many of the pros and cons of those solutions, are covered in that thread.

The time/temperature issue you raised is a difficult one to answer generically because ovens are different, pans are different, and the methods of baking can also be different. For example, some people bake the pizzas directly on an oven rack whereas others bake the pizzas on stones. You don't want to bake too quickly at too high a temperature because the fillings (e.g., veggies and any raw meats) may not bake sufficiently. In your case, you may have to do some experimentation to see what works best for you with your oven.

Peter

DKM · « **Reply #334 on:** August 25, 2008, 08:41:58 PM »

If I have a problem with the shaping I just walk away for 15-20 minutes and comeback to it. But honestly i have never had a problem do to hydration, I have problems if I work it to much getting in the pan.

DKM

ImageMan · « **Reply #335 on:** August 30, 2008, 03:01:39 PM »

How sticky should my dough be?

DKM · « **Reply #336 on:** August 30, 2008, 04:03:40 PM »

I once described it as threatening to stick without actually sticking.

dbgtr · « **Reply #337 on:** August 30, 2008, 04:54:22 PM »

I just made a batch based on Peter's most recent calculations for my pan and it seems to be a better ratio. As DKM noted, threatening but not quite sticking. This will be a straight to the pan dough, i.e., countertop rise as opposed to the fridge. I'll report on the findings tomorrow. --db

DKM · « **Reply #338 on:** August 30, 2008, 08:11:32 PM »

When one goes back and looks at my posts they know I'm a "look and feel" person, not a measurement person.

DKM

dbgtr · « **Reply #339 on:** August 30, 2008, 09:08:05 PM »

Ok, here's the results. The dough was hydrated first, then the salt and oil added, and the whole shootinmatch combined. I hand kneaded it for exactly 2 minutes. Water temp was 105, dough temp. 80F. It rose in my bathroom, right next to the water heater, but not closed in to it. It rose for about 4 hours. Ambient temperature is closer to around 74-76F, so the bathroom would only be slightly warmer. Since no hot water was being used this afternoon, the heater wasn't running much, so only a little extra heat.

My impression is that I knead too efficiently and that I need to cut back some, starting with perhaps only 1.5minutes, perhaps less. The dough was half buscuit/bread. So my kneading time was too long, at least for a single ball. The one thing I noticed was that it was a lot easier to form than the previous iterations. The dough was still crisp, but it needed to be more buscuit-y.

David