Author Topic: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs  (Read 1544 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline valhalla

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« on: March 25, 2013, 01:15:05 PM »
I have been working on both 24-hour and a 48-hour doughs and would like to know what others target for how much rising they expect in how much time.

My dough is based on the following:

Flour (100%):    1229 g  Caputo "00" blue label
Water (61%):    737 g 
CY (.2%):       2.46 g
Salt (2.6%):    32g

Yeast is dispersed in warm filtered water, mixed with flour until shaggy by hand for a 30min autolyse, add salt, then 2-3min in the SP5 spiral mixer, and transfered to a 4L round Cambro coated with olive oil.

If I incubate the dough overnight in my minifridge set to 72F, the dough will double in volume in about 10-12 hours. I think my starting dough temp is about 62F but I really should check this and I know better.  :-\

Then after a stretch and fold and back into the minifridge, it doubles again in about every 4 hours.

I tried a total of three doublings (24 hours total) before balling (250g) and held the dough at either 64F, 55F, or ~38F in the fridge.

The 64F balls were very slack, 55F inbetween, and 38F were still fairly tight after an additional 18 hours.

When cooked at a floor temp of 800F, I thought the color didn't develop well and all showed some signs of over proofed dough. Thinking about it I am not surprosed considering the amount of yeast and that it went through three doublings.

Advice on how to fine tune my doughs?
« Last Edit: March 25, 2013, 01:17:41 PM by valhalla »


Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2013, 02:34:48 PM »

So I'm using natural starter cultures rather than CY , but here are some thoughts.

Pizza dough, especially Neapolitan dough, is not bread (I think it was marco who first expressed this). Although volumetric doubling is very common in bread baking, I don't pay any attention to it when making Neapolitan-style pizzas. I play around a lot with different fermenting/proofing times and temps  to home-in on what produces the best pizzas for my tastes. This is still very much a work in progress and probably will always be one.


For example, with one of my starters, I prefer a bulk fermentation for 24 hours @ 62F, then 19 hours @68F, then ball and proof @75F for 5 hours. Since every batch is different, I can tell by the size and distribution of the bubbles in the dough (I also use a clear plastic container) whether to tweak the temp at any point. Tweaking the time isn't usually an option since I often have to serve the pizza at a specific time in order to accommodate the busy schedules of my crew. I can usually tell when the dough ball is being stretched whether or not I have nailed it.     


I'm not saying measuring volume increase is not useful, but I wonder what is so special about doubling except it is fairly easy to eyeball. But what if the dough is at its ideal state when the volume has increased by some other amount, like 2.687x?
 

Offline valhalla

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2013, 04:04:04 PM »
Bill - thank you for taking the time to reply and share your insights. I take your point that I shouldn't necessarily think about Neapolitan dough like bread dough, although bread doughs run a wide gamut to say the least. I was only thinking about the volumetric doubling as a metric for the activity of the yeast and how it is being controlled by fermentation temperature at a fixed % hydration and salt content. I may do some tweaks to the salt level to further influence the fermentation, but I"m not that far yet. Actually - not by a long stretch!! I also plan on moving to a natural starter (which I favor for breads and am very comfertable with), but as I learn more about Neapolitan doughs, I am trying to minimize the variables. I guess what I am trying to do as a total novice, if figure out more about others experience with dough rising beyond time, temperature, and dough composition. I could imagine that in Santa Fe, volumes would differ significantly due to the mile high altitude versus here at sea level!

Here is what the dough balls look like before the final fermentation in a 48-hour cycle.

And, here is a pizza made using a 24-hour dough that was bulk fermented for 12 hours @ 62F, then balled and 8 hours @68F.

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2013, 04:19:23 PM »
I could imagine that in Santa Fe, volumes would differ significantly due to the mile high altitude versus here at sea level!




Of course the decreased atmospheric pressure here at 7000 feet above sea level affects the volume of the gas produced by the yeast as well as the metabolic activity of the diverse organisms in the culture.  The methods and ingredients I use as well as the results I prefer may not apply to most other members.


Here is another thing to consider: although volume change is a function of yeast activity, it can also be a measure of the strength of the gluten structure. A strong structure could resist expansion. A very weak structure could fail to retain some of the larger gas bubbles. For my tastes a structure just strong enough to hold in the bubbles produces the best crusts.

Offline vincentoc13

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 116
  • Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2013, 08:37:29 PM »
Hello, what method are you guys able to keep temperatures and can you recommend a product to do so? 

Offline Bill/SFNM

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4042
  • Location: Santa Fe, NM
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2013, 09:10:04 PM »
Hello, what method are you guys able to keep temperatures and can you recommend a product to do so?


http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,12266.msg116108.html#msg116108


Offline jamieg

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 133
  • Location: Medellin, Colombia
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #6 on: March 25, 2013, 11:26:57 PM »

Here is another thing to consider: although volume change is a function of yeast activity, it can also be a measure of the strength of the gluten structure. A strong structure could resist expansion. A very weak structure could fail to retain some of the larger gas bubbles. For my tastes a structure just strong enough to hold in the bubbles produces the best crusts.

I've been wondering about this for some time. We make dough by hand - and everytime I try to make what I think is a "super dough" - that is - lots of rests followed by a few stretch and folds - as opposed to a relatively short period of stretch and folds which do not leave the dough perfectly smooth - I find that the dough does not rise.

I haven't tried it yet - but I'm curious as to what might happen if I attempted a "super dough" but with a much higher quantity of yeast.

Offline thezaman

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1935
  • Age: 61
  • Location: ohio
  • I Love Pizza!
    • lorenzos pizza
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2013, 03:04:31 PM »
 keep it simple reduce your yeast to a half a gram. the room method i am familiar with uses 10 grams for 25 kilos of flour. room rise at about 65 degrees you get two day out of your dough. after 24 hours you dough will still triple but once you knock it down and ball it. give it four hours to relax you should have a nice finished pie. high temperature cooking is important when the dough proofs wit this method

Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #8 on: March 27, 2013, 01:19:41 AM »
Hello, what method are you guys able to keep temperatures and can you recommend a product to do so?

Here is the set-up I use - a little less technical that Bill's yet still effective.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,18509.msg179991.html#msg179991
Pizza is not bread.

Offline valhalla

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #9 on: March 27, 2013, 04:12:18 PM »
Anybody care to comment on their process and how many doublings they expect prior to balling?


Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 13235
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #10 on: March 27, 2013, 05:49:56 PM »
Anybody care to comment on their process and how many doublings they expect prior to balling?

Here is how I do it: http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20479.0.html

48 hours with just one doubling - including the rise in balls - no punch down or re-balling. Virtually all of the rise comes in the last 24 hours after the dough is balled.
« Last Edit: March 27, 2013, 05:51:27 PM by TXCraig1 »
Pizza is not bread.

Offline valhalla

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 41
  • Location: Shrewsbury, MA
Re: Time and Volume when proofing 24-hr and 48-hr doughs
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2013, 10:17:56 AM »
Thanks Craig - that's a really good point. I think having most of the rise occur after balling the dough makes makes a lot of sense. I'll give it a try this weekend with less yeast.


 

pizzapan