Author Topic: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts  (Read 2584 times)

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Offline mitten

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Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« on: March 30, 2013, 02:48:18 PM »
Hello,

I'm looking to make NY style pizza at home, and I'm starting by delving/nerding out on DOUGH using the basic Lehmann recipe. Scott123 pointed out that there has been some talk about crappy flour options over here, so I wanted your input, dear pizza afficianados!

I've done a little research on the (store-bought) flours readily available in Finland, and from reading the forum I've understood that Bread Flour is OK, but pref. the kind with a protein content of 12-13%? (KA is 13?). In Finland, it seems that "erikoisvehnäjauho" which is white flour milled from the endosperm has "the best gluten content" and would seem closest to KA bread flour.

I've currently got two kinds of these eirkoisvehnäjauhot readily available here that I'm going to test. The "fancy place" (Stockmann's) had some Italian 00 flour, but I've understood that has to do with how finely milled it is, not necessarily going hand-in-hand with higher gluten content? (The one they had was ony 9,7g protein). Also I've understood that 00 flour isn't necessary if I'm not making pure Neapolitan style (which my current oven won't heat up enough for anyway).

1. Myllyn Paras: Erikoisvehnäjauho (12,7g protein/100g)
2. Myllyn Paras: Emännän puolikarkea erikoisvehnäjauho (13,3g protein/100g)

both of these flours have only flour and ascorbic acid (Vit C) in the ingredients list.

"puolikarkea" has to do with how finely milled the flour is. Regular erikoisvehnäjauho is "karkea" (coarser) and so option 2 is finer milled - I've understood that is prefereable? How fine is KA bread flour? I've heard a lot of people mention it as what they prefer, I guess I'd like to better understand why?

You can also get durum flour here (13g/100g) which the flour maker states "has a low percentage of stretchy gluten, which makes it ideal for making fresh pasta and fluffly non-stretching pizzadoughs".

Hiivaleipävehnäjauho (13,5g/100g) sounds like it is high in protein, but a) it seems it is always coarsly ground? and b) is darker and denser than erikoisvehnäjauho, as it is milled from parts of the endosperm near the bran layer (maybe better for you, but not so amenable to delicious NY style crust?)

Thanks in advance everyone, this place seems great!


« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 06:25:27 PM by mitten »


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2013, 02:56:12 PM »
Welcome aboard mitten!
Why not just make a batch out of each flour and see which one you prefer? 
Then we'll have some info documented here for, what seems like, a growing number of pizza heads here from Finland.  :)
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Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2013, 03:25:10 PM »
on it :chef:

Online scott123

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2013, 03:45:50 PM »
Laura, it looks like, with just a short investigation, you've been able to find options that, at least from the specs, appear to be more promising that what Morgan has been working with.

Based upon Morgan's descriptions of the consistencies and his water content (hydration) of his doughs, though, I'm not 100% certain how trustworthy the nutritional labels for Finnish flours are. By all means, test out the puolikarkea erikoisvehnäjauho, but be prepared to use a lower than Lehman water value (maybe 60%).  And also, at the same time, keep your eye out for something with even a higher protein than 13.3% (if that's possible).

While 00 is not ideal for NY style, and I was initially telling Morgan to avoid it, because the Finnish flours have been such wild cards, the known quality of the 00 eventually made it a bit more appealing.  It's, in a way, the devil we know vs the devil we don't.  Finnish flours seem to be all over the map when it comes to coarseness of the grind.  The nice thing about 00 is that the '00' classification dictates the proper fineness, so we can cross that requirement off the 'to find' list. Rub a little puolikarkea erikoisvehnäjauho between your fingers.   It should be silky smooth like baby powder and have absolutely no gritty/graininess. Your description of the regular erikoisvehnäjauho as being coarser rules it out completely. Here's what you want to look for:

White color (or slightly off white, but not as off white as ivory)
Fine (silky smooth to the touch)
Highest possible protein
Pure endosperm

Durum flour is a no go. As far as I can tell, the closest you have to a viable option and the only flour, so far, that you've found that's worth testing is the puolikarkea erikoisvehnäjauho.

Keep looking at and testing Finnish flours, but, at the same time, also keep looking at 00 specs. 9.7% is obviously way too low protein, but if you can find an 00 in the 12.5%+ realm, that might be the ticket.

Vitamin C is neither here nor there. What you will need to keep in mind is that none of the flours you find will be malted.  The enzymes in diastatic malt are critical to the texture and flavor of NY style pizza.  You're going to need to find out where Morgan obtained his diastatic malt and get some for yourself.

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2013, 07:45:22 PM »
I've actually found some other flours that I'm going to also check out. The issue seems to be that Finns don't really seem to make any "hieno" ("fine") ground (white) wheat flour (although there is fine ground rye flour!) it all seems to be "coarse" (karkea) or "half-coarse" (puolikarkea). Or at least not any that are readily available to the consumer (I'm going to try find a professional baker pal to ask about this). I'm sure I can find some higher protein 00 imported flour if I keep looking (or end up just ordering it in - sigh) but it would be cool to use a local flour.

In terms of finding a "native" flour that's going to be at like 14% I'm not sure it's going to be possible, this from checking out the wheat varieties that seem to grow in Finland from this site: http://www.leipatiedotus.fi/tietoa_leivasta/vilja_ja_viljalajit/kotimaiset_viljalajit/vehna

According to that Finland has a "spring" wheat with protein content >13% and "strong" dough viscousity properties but! you can't get local 14% protein types (like the US Hard Red Winter Wheat) to grow here

translating (somewhat shoddily) from the above page:
"Production of very high viscousity wheat with high protein content (over 13%) is possible only in continental climates such as Canada and the USA, from where it is brought to Europe to strengthen local wheat. Finnish wheat is some of the best in the world when it comes to protein content. The quality of it's viscousity however doesn't always match the best wheat due to the climate and wheat species limitations."

still: this doesn't explain why finding fine-ground versions of the high-protein finnish wheat is so hard  ::)

Anyway: feeling with my fingers there is a noticeable difference in smoothness betwen karkea erikoisvehnäjauho and the emännän puolikarkea (which is also lighter in color). I still wouldn't say the latter is "silky smooth" or baby powdery tho. I'm going to make some Lehmann doughs tomorrow using both flours (and scott your recommended 60% hydration) just to see what the difference is.

Anyway there are a couple other options that I'm going to check out and try to get my hands on/see how they behave. Figure I'll really look through the full range of Finnish flour before I resort to getting stuff imported? (somehow I envision myself ending up having to do that  :-D but let's see!)

a) Rainbow puolikarkea (12g/100) http://www.rainbow.fi/tuotteet/rainbow/elintarvikkeet/jauhot-hiutaleet-ja-suurimot/rainbow-puolikarkea-vehnajauho-2-kg/
b) Kivijärjven Hieno (!! fine!) vehnäjauho http://lahivilja.nettisivu.org/tuotteet/
c) Knehtilän tilan Hieno Vehnäjauho http://www.tuoretori.fi/tuotteet/hieno-vehnajauho-1kg/411/category/

The last couple are made by small mills, so I'll have to call them up to enquire about protein content etc (which'll probably be wednesday as everything is shut down due to Easter national holidays) and see where I could maybe find them in Helsinki (or order them from).

And btw excellent point re: maltiness, that's definitely something I'll have to try to figure out

thanks again for all your helpful advice!
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 08:12:33 PM by mitten »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2013, 09:24:39 PM »
//www.leipatiedotus.fi/tietoa_leivasta/vilja_ja_viljalajit/kotimaiset_viljalajit/vehna[/url]



 I'm going to make some Lehmann doughs tomorrow using both flours (and scott your recommended 60% hydration) just to see what the difference is.

A
mitten,
i don't know what 60% hyd. dough Scott has rec. for you while you run through these early trials sorting out the flours over there but I just thought I'd through this one out there for you to consider if you'd like. It is also 60% and is a new entry here that looks great for a quick dough....http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24197.msg245633.html#msg245633

Bob
« Last Edit: March 30, 2013, 09:26:30 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2013, 11:53:26 PM »
Laura, you've made some especially astute observations.  Basically, from a pizza flour perspective, you're being betrayed by the ground below your feet  :) Scandinavia just doesn't have the climate to grow strong wheat. Italy, for that matter, struggles with especially strong wheat as well. They import a considerable amount of flour from Canada and also get the most gluten forming ability out of their weaker wheat through some seriously impressive milling voodoo.

Another huge player in this equation is demand. For many years, American and Canadian palates have demanded stronger wheats, and the scientists have stepped up their breeding game to meet these demands.  Who, knows, maybe in 15 years or so, after pizza takes over as Finland's favorite food ;) Finnish scientists will start coming up with suitable wheat hybrids that can be grown locally.

No offense to Morgan, who's put in many hours furthering the flour quest, but I sense a fire in the belly here that's going to produce results. If it's out there, you're going to find it.

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #7 on: March 31, 2013, 08:44:56 PM »
Thanks Scott I'm definitely going to keep experimenting with flours and reporting back here. I love the idea of using a Finnish flour! but we will see if I can find anything that truly cuts the mustard. I do hope this vision of pizza taking over here and leading to new graintypes happens :D

Actually made some pizza tonight, reporting the results! Maybe I just set myself up with very low expectations but maybe that was good because it was so much better than I expected!

The COARSE vs HALF-COURSE Erikoisvehnäjauho test batches are still fermenting in the fridge as I didn't make them until yesterday (Chicago Bob: 60% hydration but otherwise using this Pete-zza hand-kneading recommendation dough for 12" pizza's http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,576.msg5674.html#msg5674).

What I did make tonight was pizza from some dough I made on friday with some COARSE erikoisvehnäjauho (only 11g protein!) and this recipe http://www.seriouseats.com/recipes/2010/10/new-york-style-pizza.html which is supposedly ~66% hydration and 1.5% salt (I used the measurements indicated because I didn't get a gram scale until saturday)

4 1/2 cups bread flour (I used no extra flour for dusting)
1 1/2 tablespoons sugar
2.5 tsp sea salt
2 teaspoons IDY
3 tablespoons extra-virgin olive oil
15 ounces lukewarm water

OVEN TEMP: with convection I get 287C (so 548F) above the stone - no idea how hot the stone itself is (need IR thermometer for that?).

1. QUESTION: dough hydration and moisture.
Scott you seemed very set on recommending a 60% (lower hydration dough) with the Finnish flours, I'm wondering what is behind that?

The abovementioned dough with the 66% was VERY moist and a total pain in the butt to work with although it got a little easier as the minutes wore on (I didn't use any dusting flour I have a wooden countertop) as I kneaded at no point was I getting anything like WINDOWPANE results, so I ended up hand kneading for 27 minutes (broke a sweat!) until I just kind gave up worried I'd gone too far.

After I put the dough in ziplocks in the fridge and it developed some nice fermenting/expansion over two days but was completely NOT anything like the smooth cute dough balls I keep seeing everywhere on this site. I mean is the fermentation supposed to look like an explosion? It was a total mess, when I took it out the bags I had to like cut them open it was so sticky (see pics). Used minimal flour so I could gently form them into something kind of round as I set them to warm up on the countertop in plastic wrap (which they also ended up totally sticking to).

QUESTION 2: I guess I forgot to oil the doughs, wonder if there is any reason not to lightly oil them first?

Anyway so after an hour I tried to form my first pie (knuckel-stretch style) and after looking at doughs around town (often smooth, beautiful) my dough was more like your drunken uncle at the family get-together in terms of handlability, but it did stretch out pretty good and thin even though I was very worried about tearing. couldn't create an even rim but I figure I'll get better at hand-tossing/stretching with time?

Sauce was my basic long-soak marinara (garlic, oregano, tomatos) and for cheese because it's all I had I used some grated MANCHEGO and thin slices of fresh (wet) mozzarella (THIS COMBO IS FANTASTIC!!!)

THE COOKING:
1st pie: 5 minutes in the oven (turned convection off after 3 minutes because I was afraid the cheese was going to burn on top before the underside cooked proper). Decent crust, great color and decent outer shell crispness but was definitely soft towards the middle of the pie and failed the fold test (flopped).

2nd pie: Turned off convection right away which made the pie take 7 minutes (!) to cook but it was worth it because the crust developed a much better char on the bottom and chewier consistency. It was stiff enough coming out the oven I was worried it would be hard, but it wasn't! Only the very outer layer was crisp, otherwise it was wonderfully chewy (tho perhaps even too much outer layer cripsness, next time 6.5 min not 7). You could lift the whole pie up and it held, passed the fold test with half the pizza but by BENDING: the crust didn't crack or split.

The second pie actually had "the holy trinity" of layers going on that I so love in pizzacrust (where there is a v. thin charred crisp bottom/shell, a wonderful chewy-tender next layer with flavor and interest! and then there is a very thin layer below the sauce that's just slightly raw and sticky and blending with the sauce). The crust was so good I gladly ate it by itself (over here in scandinavia I've gotten used to leaving pizza crusts uneaten).

END RESULT: this was surprisingly good! but you can definitely tell that something was wrong with the basic flour and flavor, and the shell was too hard. I almost want to say I could taste the extra grainyness of the coarsely milled flour. There was also no malt flavor but lots of great flavor from the 2 day ferment and something about the flavor in the manchego/mozza combo kinda made up for some things missing from the crust.

This might be the closest I've ever come to NY style street pizza over here (yes much is off, but something about flavor and mouthfeel was at least in the right direction). This makes me think that maybe I don't have to throw Finnish flour to the curb if I can hunt down fine-milled versions of it.

Anyway here's some crappy cameraphone pics (all the pizzas are the 2nd pie). Hope these are not like, embarassing for me to be so excited about  :-D I know I still have much to learn and a long way to go
« Last Edit: April 01, 2013, 08:28:45 AM by mitten »

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2013, 04:51:24 AM »
Aight! I'm further along in my quest for fine-milled Finnish flour I spoke about earlier

1. Kivijärvi Organic - these guys only do small-time delivery up around "middle Finland" and don't have a distributor in Helsinki. Got some family up there so I'll see if I can get a bag of their stuff for sampling the next time I'm around there.

2.  Knehtilä Fine Flour - you can order their stuff via tuoretori.fi, got a couple of kilos of the stuff coming in on Friday (their flours have been so popular they are totally sold out at the moment). I called the farm up and they didn't have any nutritional information on hand, BUT! the wheat they use is Kruunu (http://www.boreal.fi/fi/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=64&Itemid=90&MITdomain=MITappl=bor;MITform=docu;id=1159) which is a Finnish strong Spring Wheat so maybe not too shabby on the protein side. I asked about their milling practices and this stuff is definitely made of endosperm - they separate to offer a bran flour too.

Actually I found some information about the protein content (according to tests) with Kruunu - it's 12,7%. Now there is another wheat type called Wellamo, which is apparently 13,4% (!)
http://www.boreal.fi/fi/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=64&Itemid=90&MITdomain=MITappl=bor;MITform=docu;id=1871
and another one, Anniina that is 14,8 (!!!!!!)
http://www.boreal.fi/fi/index.php?option=com_content&view=category&layout=blog&id=64&Itemid=90&MITdomain=MITappl=bor;MITform=docu;id=1129

I might try to see if anybody is growing these and milling them (finely). So far it's looking like finely milled flours are going to be kind of specialty like, direct from the farms scenario (I'm cool with that)

I'll try to go to the local "trader joe's" type place (Maatilatori) later today and see if they offer other fine-milled flours, I doubt these are the only 2 places doing these they just happen to be the ones I found easiest via googling.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2013, 05:14:56 AM by mitten »

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #9 on: April 06, 2013, 06:42:07 AM »
Sooo....I'm not sure what happened with my 60% hydration Erikoisvehnäjauho ("coarse") vs. the Emäntä puolikarkea ("half-coarse") pizzas I made on Wednesday but it was a total disaster  ;D which is interesting, as I had totally OK results with my first attempt the first flour with the recipe mentioned above? (and a 2 day cold ferment)

Perhaps there was a devil in the kitchen but all manner of go-wrong went wrong  :-D My wooden peel had even bent (!) which made it really hard to handle the pizzas (afterwards I tried to coax it back to flat and it snapped: I now have a metal peel)

These doughs had been cold fermenting in the fridge for 3 days - the first ones I made on saturday I forgot to add yeast so they had to be chucked  :-D - and both batches were made with the following recipe. I shortened the hand-knead time to about 10 mins (with a couple short rests) but otherwise did everything prettymuch the same (eg: into fridge right after kneading etc). I now have a thermometer on hand and my starting water temp was 79F and the dough temp during and after handkneading was 80F (I read that hand-kneading doesn't really increase dough temp very much, I've been actively monitoring when I make dough and this totally seems to be the case).

2 x (12") of dough for each flour using the calculator:
--------------------
Flour 100%  393g
Water 60%  236g
Salt 1.75%  7g
Oil 1%        4g
IDY 0.25%  1g

These "balls" came out of the fridge looking maybe even more insane than the first time round (waay stretched out and full of sticky webbing) I was careful not to manhandle them though I formed them into something vaguely round to sit on the counter warming up wrapped in plastic for a little over an hour.

When it came time to form and stretch they were both definitely unruly but I managed to knuckle-stretch them into pizzas without much tearing. Then the problems really began. The first pizza (made with the same flour I'd had great success with before) totally stuck to the peel and ended up on the floor  :angel:

I was more careful with the second one (the half-coarse), but it was also so impossible to slide in the oven I ended up flipping half of it over to make kinda a "calzone" so it ended up all deep dish which I HATE  :-D The overall flavor was ok but texture (gummy) and otherwise obviously NOT anywhere near thin NY style.

It seems that one needs to be pretty fast with stretching, dressing and shoving in the oven? How much should a good dough suck up moisture from say, the tomato sauce? Also working with a colder dough seems to be a little easier? I try to use as little flour as possible (only on the peel) - this worked fine for my first attempt so I'm wondering what's going so wrong

differences
a) way shorter hand-knead time of 10 minutes vs. 27 minutes
b) I wonder what temp my "lukewarm" water was. At the time I didn't have a temp measurer I recall hand-measuring something "slightly warmer than my bodytemp". With these water temp was 79F
b) there is much less yeast (have to check %) and no sugar
c) 3 days of ferment, not two (these doughs had definitely exploded by the first 24h)
d) no oil coating the dough before refridgeration
e) very different hydration percentage (if the 66% estimate for first recipe is correct).

I'm actually going to try to approximate what the baker's percentages for my original recipe were (weighing out the water and flour I used w/ gram scale)

Anyway here are some more embarassing pictures, just to try to document

« Last Edit: April 06, 2013, 09:10:32 AM by mitten »


Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2013, 07:47:55 AM »
Here are the results of some tests I did with the following flour

** Nikkilä Luomu Hieno vehnäjauho ** (you can buy this stuff from Eat&Joy Maatilatori at Kluuvi in Helsinki)

1 x 12" doughball, 2 day cold ferment
---------------------
Flour 100%   193g
Water 58%   116g
IDY 0.25%    0.5g (My scale only does 1g increments so I measure up to 1g then halve the amount by eyeball)
Salt 1.75%   3.5g
Oil 1%          2g

Hand-knead time (I need to try to somehow standardize this, perhaps kneading "long enough to get a smooth appearance to the dough, no longer" as Lehmann has suggested): ~ 20 minutes with a couple of rests.

Observations
a) wow, what a smooth ball! starting to look like what the doballs I see around here do. Even my roommate was like "wow how is that so smoove?"
b) Even after 2 days it had hardly risen in the fridge at all (unlike the prior explosives) and it didn't rise very much on the counter either...
c) After warming up this dough felt somehow far denser? than any of the others I've worked with. It was much! easier to stretch out and handle, because it stretched out more slowly so I wasn't racing to turn it before it teared etc.
d) I'm worried about the protein percentage in this flour. The farmer couldn't tell me exactly what wheat he uses (other than that is was a Spring Wheat) or his protein content (as that varies a lot depending on the year/season, he said).

I had trouble with "peel stick" this time round too, but I think I've figured out a way to deal with that - I hand-stretch a whole "whole pie" and then just cut out smaller slices I can handle on the peel - I don't spread the toppings all the way to the edge, but form a little "rim" which I can then cut off when the slice comes out the oven. Kind of cheating but allows me to handle "mean" doughs that seem to stick to the peel and get bitchy about the weight of toppings for a whole pie. I guess good doughs shouldn't have this issue? but hey I'm a noob and struggling with these crazy flours

Did same cook time as before - a little over 6 minutes. I turn the convection on/off a little towards the end to get proper browning on top but otherwise turn it off right after the pizza is on the stone.

There was very little "oven spring" so not that much chewyness or airyness. It felt dense and much "tougher" (crumbly) than earlier crusts, so dryer I guess. I didn't try the "bend test" but I'm pretty sure it would have cracked and not folded. It was edible but I'm very much not satisfied. The coarseness of this flour (the finest to date!) is very promising though, so I'm going to try to experiement with it (increasing the yeast a bit, experimenting with the hydration % and maybe shortening the knead time) to see what effects that has.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2013, 03:58:57 AM by mitten »

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #11 on: April 07, 2013, 08:35:25 AM »
Laura, where do I start? :)

I guess, since I didn't get a chance to comment on your first round of pies, let me just say that they look stunning. No offense to other parts of the nation/globe, but I've noticed that NYers/ex-NYers tend to have a sixth sense about pizzamaking and pick it up a little quicker than most. You are definitely a textbook example of this phenomenon.

I've got a lot of ground to cover, so I'm breaking it up into sections:

Protein and hydration

Wheat protein, when wet and agitated (kneading) forms gluten. Gluten traps water.  Higher protein flours, generally speaking, make higher gluten doughs, which, in turn can hold more water. It would be nice to just say "xxx amount of water for every test," but, you should, to an extent, try to match your hydration to your protein. This is an extremely rough guesstimate, but I would think that for every protein percentage point change, you should probably go with a 4% water adjustment.

Every flour is going to have a sweet spot when it comes to hydration, but, I've found that if you miss the mark, it's not really the end of the world.  If, for instance, a flour works best at 63% hydration, if you go with 60% or 66%, it will still function very well.  Right now, it's more about finding the right flour than nailing the perfect water ratio.
I picked 60% because Morgan was complaining a lot about wet doughs and I was concerned that the protein specs for Finnish flours might not be entirely reliable.

What's the protein content on the Nikkilä Luomu Hieno vehnäjauho?

Containers

No bags, no non-round containers, and no containers that don't comfortably fit at least 4x the volume of the original dough. You want to start with a smooth, clear bottomed container like this:

http://www.amazon.com/Pyrex-Storage-7-Cup-Round-Plastic/dp/B000LOWN3C

And then, once you're a bit more comfortable detecting proper fermentation, you can graduate up to one of these:

http://www.bakedeco.com/a/plastic-dough-pan-s-12232.htm#.UWFXsGoub0l
http://www.bakedeco.com/a/channel-pizza-dough--1494.htm#.UWFYLWoub0k

Always lightly oil the container so the dough comes out easily, without being mangled.

Peels

It's time to go shopping for a wood peel :)  You always want to launch with wood, retrieve with metal, as metal tends to be too sticky for launching.

By the fact that it warped, it sounds like you might have gotten your peel wet. Never get a wood peel wet. If you get sauce or cheese on it, just give it a light sanding with fine to medium grit sandpaper or a sanding sponge. Also, I'm not sure if  you're doing this, but never place the cooked pizza on the launching peel, as you don't want to get the peel dirty or get raw flour on the pizza.  You'll want a pizza pan for cutting.

A proper wood peel goes a long way in making for an easier launch.  Make sure the peel starts tapering all the way back at the handle, and not just an inch or so away from the edge.  The whole blade (the area where the pizza sits on) needs to be very thin.

Launching

Calzones are good learning experiences :)  The best way to learn how to launch is by doing. Make a throwaway skin, stretch it, top it with beans, launch it on the counter, pull it back on the peel, then launch it again, over and over again.

Another crutch for the beginning launcher is going a bit heavier with the flour on the peel.

Stretching

Stretching is another area where practice tends to make perfect. Here's a couple videos to get you started (ignore the rolling pin stuff, the tossing and any references to pizza pans).

Tony Gemignani - How to Make Pizza Dough Fundamentals

How To Hand Slap Pizza Crust


Pay close attention to the edge stretch, as that's critical for preventing a bowl shaped pizza that most beginners tend to be plagued with.

A good way to practice stretching is to make an extra dough and stretch it as far as you possibly can.

Natural light photography

This isn't a huge deal, but the color of the dough is a part of the process of determining if the flour is right. Quite a few of your photos have a yellow hue from fluorescent lighting. If, at all possible, try to take photos using natural light.

Diastatic malt

I briefly spoke about this before, but you have to start sourcing D.M.  D.M. is malt with active enzymes- these enzymes are critical for producing sugar/browning, but, more importantly for helping degrade the gluten for a more tender end product.  You might be able to mirror the effects of D.M. by pushing the fermentation times, perhaps to 4 days or longer, but D.M would make the process easier.

Oil is another method for making non malted flours a bit more tender.  Increase your oil to 3%.  You also definitely want to add a little sugar, even if you're getting pretty good browning with convection. 1% sugar should do it.

The recipe, as I've mentioned before is not a huge part of the equation, but, as far as recipes, go, the ones  you find on this site are a bit more authentic than seriouseats.  At some point, you might want to give mine a shot, adjusting the hydration for the protein content of your flour:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,20732.msg206639.html#msg206639

Pay close to the appearance I'm describing for determining how much to knead.  For a multi-day cold fermented dough, you don't want to be anywhere near windowpane.

Cheese

I'm not sure why this is, but European fresh mozzarella tends to melt a bit better than domestic.  You can help it along with some fat. I don't think olive oil belongs on NY style pizza, but you can get fat from meat.  Can you score some pepperoni and/or some sopressata?

Oven set up

Between the convection setting, the peak temp you're able to hit, and the transfer rate of your stone, I don't think you have to fuss with steel- yet.  You will hit a point, though, where your pizza will hit a plateau, and if you want to kick it up one more notch, it will be time for steel shopping.

Predicting yeast activity

For every dough you make, record ambient/flour temp, water temp, and, if user a mixer, post kneading dough temp.  Try, if possible, to work with the same temps every time.
Pick a yeast quantity and a target time based upon a recipe you see here and then see how much volume is achieved by the time it's supposed to be ready.  If the volume is low, next time, adjust the yeast up, if it's to high, adjust the yeast down. For now, flexibile scheduling is ideal.  Don't plan a big party for a particular day. Make your dough with the kind of mentality whereby it would be nice to have dough on x day, but, if, it's ready the day before or after, then you can work with that.

Yeast measurement

Unless you have a jewelers scale, you want to measure yeast volumetrically, not by weight. Everything else can be measured by weight, though.


You're not cooking your sauce right?  Uncooked tomatoes, straight from the can and hand blended a bit, are the core ingredient of pizza sauce. If you cook the sauce prior to baking, it will lose all it's brightness.

d) I'm worried about the protein percentage in this flour. The farmer couldn't tell me exactly what wheat he uses (other than that is was a Spring Wheat) or his protein content (as that varies a lot depending on the year/season, he said).


Uh oh, that's not instilling a great deal of confidence. Still, though, the Nikkilä Luomu Hieno vehnäjauho seems to be the most promising.  For your next experiment, this is what I'd try:

1 x 12" doughball, 3 day cold ferment
---------------------
Flour 100%
Water 60%
IDY 0.25% (measuring by volume-use the dough calculator)
Salt 1.75%
Oil 3%
Sugar 1%

You might want to double this and make one on day 3 and one on day 4.

Cold-ish dough can be a bit easier to work with, especially if it's a bit slack, but tempering (allow the dough to warm up a bit prior to stretching) is critical for oven spring.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:56:52 AM by scott123 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #12 on: April 07, 2013, 10:36:10 AM »
Wheat protein, when wet and agitated (kneading) forms gluten. Gluten traps water.  Higher protein flours, generally speaking, make higher gluten doughs, which, in turn can hold more water. It would be nice to just say "xxx amount of water for every test," but, you should, to an extent, try to match your hydration to your protein. This is an extremely rough guesstimate, but I would think that for every protein percentage point change, you should probably go with a 4% water adjustment.

Scott,

I don't know if this is the number you are looking for, but the article embedded in Reply 9 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,8419.msg72940/topicseen.html#msg72940 states as follow as to the relationship of protein and absorption:

PROTEIN INFLUENCE
Both soluble and insoluble (gluten) proteins absorb water. We might expect that absorption by the insoluble gluten proteins would have more effect on dough rheology than that of the soluble proteins, but the specific evidence for such a conclusion is somewhat indirect. At one time or another, every major cereal chemistry research laboratory has studied the relationship between protein content and absorption. And there is quite good agreement that a 1% increase in protein will increase absorption by about 1.3%.


However, I should mention that there is a difference between the rated absorption value of a flour and the operational absorption value, which can be 2-4% higher than the rated absorption value.

Peter

Online scott123

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #13 on: April 07, 2013, 10:54:56 AM »
And there is quite good agreement that a 1% increase in protein will increase absorption by about 1.3%.

Peter, while it's interesting to hear what these particular experts have to say, 1:1.3 has no correlation to my experience working with flours with varying protein levels. Perhaps 4% might be a little too liberal,  but 1.3% is, imo, ridiculously low.  If 14% flour is, say, in the 65% realm, that would make 12% flour 62.4%.  10% flour would be 59.8%.  10% at 59.8% would be soup compared to 14% at 65%.  The spectrum has to be wider than that.

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #14 on: April 07, 2013, 02:54:19 PM »
Scott, wow! thankyou so much for such an incredibly in-depth reply and such kind words of encouragement about the first pie :chef: your replies to some of my questions were exactly the kind of stuff I feel I've been missing. The tips for beginners in your recipe thread you gave - also v. helpful!

Pete: thankyou for the link to expert opinions on dough absorption - this is the kind of stuff I'm looking for too! (and I've found you linking and categorizing all over this site which is so helpful) All information feeds this "big picture" I'm trying to create in my mind about everything going on with pizza from the moment flour touches water to the pie out the oven. I do tend to be kind of a nerd so I can get too bogged down with "theory" and I've found the knowledge gained through practice and "feel" sometimes doesn't go 100% hand-in-hand with that - or at least in quite the way you think it should (esp. when you are new to something). Both kinds of learning/knowledge feed each other though and are important if one wants to advance.

I hope with hours and hours of working with doughs, at some point flours will start to "speak to me" a little better? because say with the Nikkilä, I don't actually know the exact protein percentage (the farmer/miller has to have the info somewhere, I'd think, so I will try to call him about this again tomorrow) and I'm pretty sure this will the norm if I'm trying the "little guys" (mills/farmers) here. The big flour makers on the consumer end (Raisio/Sunnuntai, Myllyn Paras, Myllärin Luomu, Rainbow) of course have that info right upfront on the labels and might even mill FINE flour for the non-consumer market, so I'm going to call them up this week to ask, and I still need to try and see if anybody is farming that crazy 14,8% wheat I mentioned earlier (or even the 13,4% one!) and milling pure endosperm goodness from it.

Anyway Scott: all your advice has been duly noted and is MUCH appreciated! Going to get (maybe order) another wooden peel and search for the kinds of containers you mentioned and DM (didn't know about the tenderizing etc qualities it gives too!). Also a little embarassed about the yeast measurements - does make much more sense to use a tsp for that! I LOVE! the launching practice with beans idea! (and practice stretching to the floor!) ON IT! I'd figured that there was a good reason for not launching a "colder" dough (letting it warm up) so thanks for clearing that up.

Happy my home oven is cutting it for now, at the moment the thought of getting to "plateauing" sounds like a far-off dream :chef: but good to already know there will be a next step to take after that with the steel

I'll try the recipe/ferment days you mentioned for the Nikkilä dough asap! and move my experimentations to the morning so I can take pictures with natural lighting and not have to take yellowy photos (this'll make my roommate happy as she often cooks in the evenings and is getting a little peeved WHAT YOU NEED THE OVEN AND KITCHEN AGAIN FOR HOURS?)  :-D

Thank you again!
« Last Edit: April 09, 2013, 08:13:16 AM by mitten »

Offline Morgan

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #15 on: April 12, 2013, 12:09:47 PM »
Hi mitten! If you need that malt powder you can order it from ebay: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Malt-Powder-diastatic-4-ounces-packaged-by-Barry-Farm-with-windowed-tin-/320980727184?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4abbf13590

I tested it only few times, but it definitely makes some kind of difference.

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2013, 01:21:54 PM »
Hey, thanks Morgan! I'd already placed an order from this place: http://bakerybits.co.uk/Diax-Diastatic-Malt-Flour-P778641.aspx (which is in England) the shipping costs though are sooo painful (like 4x the cost of the stuff) - luckily one doesn't need that much, eh?  :o What were the shipping costs like for the ebay source?

I have been trying to hunt DM down over here "in the motherland" to avoid annoying shipping costs, this place apparently supplies bakeries with diastaltic malt enzyme extracts
http://www.senson.fi/en/products/enzyme-extracts
I've emailed them to see if one can source "home use" amounts of this "maltazyme" they speak of, will report back with what they say!

Another site I found is this one, where they mention diastatic malt extract:
http://www.laihianmallas.fi/tuotteet/tietoa-mallasuutteista/diastaattinen-ohramallasuute

They have a liquid barley malt extract that can be used in baking, which you can get at pharmacies (fridge section) but I think it's non-diastatic (no active enzymes), I've emailed them though to double-check, the site speaks of the stuff adding "fluffiness, crust crunchiness and better flavor"
http://www.laihianmallas.fi/tuotteet/tuotteemme/apteekin-mallasuute-

Offline Morgan

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2013, 01:47:30 PM »
Quote
Hey, thanks Morgan! I'd already placed an order from this place: http://bakerybits.co.uk/Diax-Diastatic-Malt-Flour-P778641.aspx (which is in England) the shipping costs though are sooo painful (like 4x the cost of the stuff) - luckily one doesn't need that much, eh?  :o What were the shipping costs like for the ebay source?


Shipping was around 14$ for 2 bags + one tin-can.

Quote
I have been trying to hunt DM down over here "in the motherland" to avoid annoying shipping costs, this place apparently supplies bakeries with diastaltic malt enzyme extracts
http://www.senson.fi/en/products/enzyme-extracts
I've emailed them to see if one can source "home use" amounts of this "maltazyme" they speak of, will report back with what they say!


Its impossible to get this stuff from there, i called there and its no-go. Its only for big buyers!

Quote
Another site I found is this one, where they mention diastatic malt extract:
http://www.laihianmallas.fi/tuotteet/tietoa-mallasuutteista/diastaattinen-ohramallasuute


I send some email and tried to call, but not heard anything from them.

Quote
They have a liquid barley malt extract that can be used in baking, which you can get at pharmacies (fridge section) but I think it's non-diastatic (no active enzymes), I've emailed them though to double-check, the site speaks of the stuff adding "fluffiness, crust crunchiness and better flavor"
http://www.laihianmallas.fi/tuotteet/tuotteemme/apteekin-mallasuute-



I bought this, but like you said there might not be any enzymes in this stuff. I think it still is a good product to at least test.

I don't think you really need the malt powder if you just have a proper oven, i ordered it because i was hoping for better browning, but didn't noticed a big difference. I will use it, but im not sure will i order more when i run out...

« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 01:50:43 PM by Morgan »

Offline mitten

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2013, 02:11:59 PM »
Argh, I was worried that Senson would be all about big buyers, oh well... Thanks for all the info, esp. on the shipping costs. I think the UK connection might be about the same shipping-wise, so will keep that in mind when I eventually need to get more? if I absolutely fall in love with the stuff  :)

I think I might also test the malt extract, just because it's relatively easy to find - might not have the other "baking" effects (tenderizing, lift etc) Scott mentioned if it's not the active enzyme stuff though, and those sound preeetty sweet  :( although for me the flavor is a big factor as I'm trying to recreate the NY kind of pizza I miss so much :)

Continuing my flour reports (the NIKKILÄ tests got delayed because I ran out of the flour, but they are now in the fridge fermenting) - I'll try to be much briefer in my descriptions from now on, feel like I rattle on way too much....

** KNEHTILÄ HIENO VEHNÄJAUHO ***
http://www.tuoretori.fi/tuotteet/hieno-vehnajauho-1kg/411/category/

This flour is definitely also the right coarseness (fine) and I've been experimenting with it all week, but unfortunately it is NOT pure endosperm - there are definite flakes of bran? etc in it. I get the feeling it has better gluten-content that the Nikkilä though, but let's see how those experiments finally pan out.

My best-tasting-crust results with this stuff are pictured below (yeah yeah they don't look pretty but serve to document) and done with the following recipe. I cut out a "NY size slice" because I wanted to pretend I was really experiencing that from my sad little home-oven-sized pie  ;)

48 hour cold ferment
Flour (100%):    190 g 
Water (63%):    120 g
IDY (0.25%):    0.48 g | 0.02 oz | 0.16 tsp
Salt (1.75%):    3.3 g 
Oil (2%):    4 g
Sugar (1.75%):    3.3 g

Observations:
- It was a little "droopy" at the tip, but bottom definitely had that few millimeters of crispness I love
- Crust wasn't bad: springy, chewy, crisp on the outside but not too hard etc
- Flavor is off (a little whole-grainy), but not bad at all
- I'd made a similar hydration batch without sugar and only 1% oil, and the crust was less tender and flavorful?
- Got a new wooden peel for launching, and it is SO the way to go (still need lots of practice, as you can see from where I had to fold the rim a bit)

Cheese: I used a mix of buffala mozzarella and Allegrum's Svecia (http://www.lindahls.fi/tuotteet/skaanemejerier-juustot/allerum-svecia-28-450g.aspx) which is a 14 month old aged cheese with great flavor "well-suited to browning".

anyway, the HUNT for flour continues!
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 02:35:36 PM by mitten »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Flour in Finland for Lehmann NY style dough attempts
« Reply #19 on: April 15, 2013, 02:35:35 PM »
That last one is not looking too shabby at all mitten...,keep up the great work your're doing.  :chef:
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