Author Topic: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions  (Read 624 times)

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Offline blacroix

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Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« on: June 16, 2014, 08:07:36 AM »
From everything I've read here, it would seem a small (24-28" inside diameter) oven might not be big enough to keep me happy, so I was considering something a bit larger - in the 32-38" range.  The challenge is... while my wife is somewhat on board (gave me a "maybe" answer for fathers day... lol), she wants input on the aesthetics, including size.  We are planning a backyard remodel also, to include a modified rumford fireplace, 8' island with grill and a pizza oven.  We want to keep them all with the same materials on the outside (natural Austin stone - rust colored is our preference).  The challenge is the exterior size of the oven... if I run a stone veneer (~4-5 inches thick) up and do a gabled roof, I am struggling with outside dimensions:

 - 36" diameter + 6" insulation (3" each side) + 6" wall thickness (3" each side) + 1" hardi backer (1/2 each side) + 8-10" stone veneer (4-5 each side)
 - total width = 57-59 inches.

The only ways I could come up with trimming visual weight would be:

 1. Go with thin veneer (1-1.5" thick instead of 4-5", shaving off 6-7" width)
 2. Give up on the gabled design, only run stone veneer up to oven base and do oven base as a pour-in-place concrete counter, shaving 8-10"
 3. Go with a smaller diameter cooking surface - maybe going down to 31-32"

Please provide some input based on your experiences on either the options listed above or anything I may have missed.  I'm not in a huge rush, as I certainly plan to wait until at least after I take a pizza cooking class @ Bread Stone Ovens before we finalize design, but as a planner, I can't wait that long to at least come up with a potential "final design".  :)

Brian


Offline stonecutter

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2014, 11:09:33 AM »
From everything I've read here, it would seem a small (24-28" inside diameter) oven might not be big enough to keep me happy, so I was considering something a bit larger - in the 32-38" range.  The challenge is... while my wife is somewhat on board (gave me a "maybe" answer for fathers day... lol), she wants input on the aesthetics, including size.  We are planning a backyard remodel also, to include a modified rumford fireplace, 8' island with grill and a pizza oven.  We want to keep them all with the same materials on the outside (natural Austin stone - rust colored is our preference).  The challenge is the exterior size of the oven... if I run a stone veneer (~4-5 inches thick) up and do a gabled roof, I am struggling with outside dimensions:

 - 36" diameter + 6" insulation (3" each side) + 6" wall thickness (3" each side) + 1" hardi backer (1/2 each side) + 8-10" stone veneer (4-5 each side)
 - total width = 57-59 inches.

The only ways I could come up with trimming visual weight would be:

 1. Go with thin veneer (1-1.5" thick instead of 4-5", shaving off 6-7" width)
 2. Give up on the gabled design, only run stone veneer up to oven base and do oven base as a pour-in-place concrete counter, shaving 8-10"
 3. Go with a smaller diameter cooking surface - maybe going down to 31-32"

Please provide some input based on your experiences on either the options listed above or anything I may have missed.  I'm not in a huge rush, as I certainly plan to wait until at least after I take a pizza cooking class @ Bread Stone Ovens before we finalize design, but as a planner, I can't wait that long to at least come up with a potential "final design".  :)

Brian

My latest oven is a 33", mainly because I wasn't planning a permanent ( whatever that means ) oven for the base it's on. It's ok, but if you are doing 90 sec pizza, it's more oven management than a larger diameter. Size wise, a good all around size is 36". If you use 3" of ceramic wool, that would shave inches too. From there, if you build an enclosure, metal studs don't need the clearance of wood, use less space than masonry.  A stucco finish over the insulation will require the least amount of space.  For an enclosure, a thin veneer will be your best option for saving space...and be a lot more user friendly than full thickness veneer, if you have no masonry experience.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 07:59:15 AM by stonecutter »
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Offline JConk007

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2014, 12:43:20 PM »
My outdoor Kitchen has a 36" oven see it here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7338.msg63353#msg63353 let me know if you have any Questions
PS I required full board approval also  :-D
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #3 on: June 16, 2014, 12:57:35 PM »
Hi Brian,

If I may suggest, don't go smaller on the cooking surface.

If you want to trim some, use the thinner stones. The last time I went my stone wholesaler, they had some true natural Austine stone that were no more than 1"1/2 thick. I can find out who made them if you want.

Antoine
WFO cooking is about passion.

Offline JConk007

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #4 on: June 16, 2014, 01:05:18 PM »
yep $150 per Pallet !! bought 3 pallet laid em all out and had a great selection, was WAY  less $$ than fake stuff and I had plenty for  nice stone wall after  ;)
John
I Love to Flirt with Fire! www.flirtingwithfirepizza.com

Offline parallei

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #5 on: June 16, 2014, 01:47:07 PM »
If you are not set on a monolithic stone look, you could also consider some sort of steel enclosure like some of the commercial Italian ovens have.  You'd have choice of colors and, personally, I think it looks good when folks break things up a bit.

I don't own a WFO, but I'd go for the larger diameter oven.  Function before form...........

Offline blacroix

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #6 on: June 16, 2014, 02:24:47 PM »
Hi Brian,

If I may suggest, don't go smaller on the cooking surface.

If you want to trim some, use the thinner stones. The last time I went my stone wholesaler, they had some true natural Austine stone that were no more than 1"1/2 thick. I can find out who made them if you want.

Antoine

That is my inclination also, to NOT go with a smaller cooking surface.  So I will plan to stick with 36".

We've discussed the possibility of tiling the cooking dome - which would certainly cut down on space requirements a LOT (can drop the 8-10" stone veneer from the top portion, meaning the oven base will not have stone outside it - only UNDER it.

I also think that doing a round base, instead of square, would cut down on the visual bulk.  My wife did mention that if I did a "turret" style look, like we saw on a picture, that actually had the vent redirected to the center of the top of the turret, she would like that design.  It would certainly pose more of a technical/construction challenge - but I've never been one to shy away from a challenge.  Might need to stick with full veneer if we go that route so there would be room to chip away at edges to round out the stone facing better.  If we were talking a 58" square -vs- a 58" diameter build, visually that's a lot less bulk and removes some square corners, polishing off the design better IMO.  58" square = 3,364 sq inches; 58" diameter = 2,642 sq inches - so that's a lot less bulk.  Hmmm, will have to think about that.  I could quite easily increase the size of the oven to 37.5" ... and use the FGM 950 oven to offset the additional time that will be required to veneer the outside with getting an oven kit (instead of hand building the oven).

Antoine - question for you... do you have any customers/friends in DFW that have an FGM950 or FGM800 that would be willing to let my wife and I come by to check out their outdoor kitchens?  My wife isn't great at visualizing things in her mind, seeing first hand is definitely going to move the design phase forward.

My outdoor Kitchen has a 36" oven see it here http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7338.msg63353#msg63353 let me know if you have any Questions
PS I required full board approval also  :-D
John

Beautiful job on your kitchen.  How are the wood cabinets holding up?  I see you built a custom cover for them - VERY smart move.  My dad used to teach wood working, so we have lots of custom pieces in the house (a few months ago we built a couch and a side table for the living room out of solid mahogany [my favorite wood] and he built a beautiful corner shelf for my daughter [only 3 years old right now, but she'll appreciate it later] where he even turned the finial on his lathe).  So I absolutely love wood, but hate the maintenance of outdoor wood (though thought I saw that it was Ipe - incredible selection for outdoor, though I suspect you had to predrill every hole!  That stuff isn't called Iron Wood for nothing).

Brian

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #7 on: June 16, 2014, 10:36:16 PM »
Antoine - question for you... do you have any customers/friends in DFW that have an FGM950 or FGM800 that would be willing to let my wife and I come by to check out their outdoor kitchens?  My wife isn't great at visualizing things in her mind, seeing first hand is definitely going to move the design phase forward.

Brian

Hi Brian,

Yes, I have a couple of people who would be happy to show you their oven set-up.
Also if you wanted to stop by the warehouse I have a couple of 950 being / already assembled and it will give you a good idea of what it takes to do the outside finish with stucco or metal.

Send me a quick email antoine@breadstoneovens.com or call me 469-484-4990 and we can discuss further.

Antoine
WFO cooking is about passion.

Offline blacroix

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2014, 01:55:10 AM »
Thank you, Antoine.  I will get in touch in the next couple weeks. 

After dinner, my wife and I walked through the back yard.  I sketched on the ground a 50" circle.  She liked that... And then asked if I can build it to look like a turret with a slate roof.   I have never worked with slate tiles nor building a conical roof, but what the heck... I love a challenge so told her that if that seals the deal, then between my dad and I, we can get that done.  And after a bit of researching Dallas zoning, I have also come to the conclusion that I cannot go with full size stone veneer (4-5") as that would require a structural foundation and therefore a permit and it is going to be located within 5' of the side property line, which is against zoning setbacks.  We are going to have pavers installed in the area, so I am reaching out to the contractor to get load bearing specs to see if the 60mm pavers will handle the weight load and if an extra thick layer of crushed aggregate and/or 80mm pavers will be needed in this area.  It is my understanding of building code that this would classify the kitchen island and pizza oven as non permanent structures and therefore not require permitting.  Anyone here have experience on this in the city of Dallas?  I will absolutely have to pull a permit for the outdoor fireplace, though am rather annoyed at how crappy Dallas documentation is regarding what sort of documentation is required!

Brian

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2014, 07:57:37 AM »
No experience building in Texas, so I'm no help for codes.  But as far as your patio, I'll tell you that 60mm pavers will support the weight of the oven.  But the real issue isn't the pavers, it's the base they are bedded in.  After you get all the organic soil out, use well graded aggregate and compact in 2" lifts. Your screed to bed the pavers should be no thicker than 1". 
http://oldworldstoneandgarden.com/


When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Offline blacroix

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2014, 11:27:39 AM »
No experience building in Texas, so I'm no help for codes.  But as far as your patio, I'll tell you that 60mm pavers will support the weight of the oven.  But the real issue isn't the pavers, it's the base they are bedded in.  After you get all the organic soil out, use well graded aggregate and compact in 2" lifts. Your screed to bed the pavers should be no thicker than 1".
Thank you for the expert opinion - I believe the contractor was talking 6" of aggregate.  Does that sound right?  I have not signed a contract yet, so I definitely have the ability to negotiate the below grade structure.  I was assuming 60mm pavers would be fine, since this is the size recommended for a driveway - and I have to believe my wife's 2010 Ford Explorer surely applies a higher load per sq inch at the tires than an oven + base.  Here are my weight estimates:

 - The FGM 950 is listed at 925lbs
 - The exterior of my structure will be 202 sq ft, thin veneer weighs 2,000lbs for 170 sq ft, so that's ~ 2,400 lbs
 - Roughly 40 blocks (4" solid CMU) for the base @ 25lbs ea = 1,000 lbs
 - 4" slab for oven = ~4.5 cu ft @ 150 lbs/cu ft = 675 lbs
 - Misc crap (roof, slate tiles, mortar, concrete backer for upper half of unit) = 800lbs (complete swag)

Total: 5,800.  The weight would be spread over a 4" CMU diameter of roughly 54" o.d./50" i.d. - my calculations say 326 sq inches total without a wood opening in the bottom or maybe 250 sq ft with an opening for wood storage, so weight per sq inch would be 17-23 lbs.  Is my thought process/math correct?  And do you feel this is a reasonable load for a pavered patio to handle?

Brian

Offline stonecutter

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2014, 01:51:23 PM »
Most concrete pavers are rated between 3000-10000psi....yeah, it can handle the weight.

Like I said, it's your base that is the critical component. Well graded aggregate will have large-fine particles, and packs hard when dampened and compacted.  Then you want a wide footprint to spread the load.  I see you are planning a round base. But if plans change ( they often do) and a square or rectangular base is built, then select a pattern that runs adjacent to the lines of your base.....a round base isn't as much if a concern.

I don't know your soil conditions, but 6" sounds good for an area with no frost. Try to find out if the contractor is going to compact the base in lifts.
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When we build, let us think that we build for ever.
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Offline blacroix

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #12 on: June 17, 2014, 05:14:47 PM »
Stonecutter -

I cannot thank you enough for your input.  It will be a few months before we get the pavered patio installed (have to do final selection of pattern/color to get an official quote - we've just been discussing pricing/design verbally at this point).  I cannot wait to start building this.  The challenge of a conical roof has me very intrigued.  Call me sadistic, but I like a good challenge.

Last month, my dad and I spent the day together building a couch and side table.  I'm attaching a picture cause I'm very happy with how it turned out (solid mahogany, definitely my favorite wood grain) and a picture of my dad's stone shed.  Luckily, I inherited his mechanical aptitude!

Brian

Offline blacroix

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #13 on: June 17, 2014, 05:50:24 PM »
Sorry to post back-to-back (bad forum etiquette, I know)... but I just finished building the Google Sketchup model of what I'm thinking.  It's not 100% to scale (haven't figured out how to change dimensions other than to drag things around), but it's accurate enough to give a good visual.  The overhang should be sufficient that I can put some lighting around the perimeter as an accent... :)  Maybe I have my hands full enough to not worry about running electrical and keeping it insulated properly from the heat...

Brian
« Last Edit: June 17, 2014, 05:53:35 PM by blacroix »

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: Wife acceptance factor - trimming outside dimensions
« Reply #14 on: June 17, 2014, 11:14:07 PM »
For the foundation, we have some pretty shifty grounds here in Dallas so make sure the contractor warranties his work. Typically a 4" thick concrete pad with rebars can take the weight of a car or an oven and more.

On the insulation end, don't worry about it. If you put 4" at the bottom and 5" at the top, the oven will be very well insulated. You can always pour perlite or vermiculite in the space above the oven to fill any air gap.
With such insulation, you can fire your oven at 900 F all day long and not even feel the heat come through.

Antoine
WFO cooking is about passion.


 

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