Author Topic: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer  (Read 4172 times)

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Offline dhorst

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2013, 12:23:08 PM »
Have you guys ever used a danish dough hook?  I've been meaning to pick one up for quite some time.  From what some people have said, it's not only for dough but wonderful for creaming butter.  My KA is always taking a beating for large batches of dough, but thinking forward, in a few years, there won't be kids in the house, so, maybe small batches by hand will be the way to go.


Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #21 on: June 11, 2013, 09:56:08 AM »
My process is to just mix the ingredients with a wooden spoon,until it forms a rough loaf and it holds it shape..sort of.
I cover with a damp towel, and walk away for 20 or 30 minutes.
I do some stretch and folds, and I'm done.
I believe that time and resting allows the saturation we are seeking.

I do a neapolitan dough, and I've run from 60 to 68 % hydration, but generally 64-65 %.
Perry

Hi Perry.

I tried your method a few days ago and while I'm sure it's due to inexperience in hand mixing, that dough fought me to the end. I used ~62% hydration using KABF, + 2 day cold ferment, and it didn't have the development that my KA mixed dough usually gets. How many S&F's do you do?

I worked that dough for 20 minutes to shape it into a halfway decent skin (with rest periods). But it never came out right. Almost had a calzone on my hands.
Josh

Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #22 on: June 27, 2013, 02:17:07 PM »
I made some dough last night and I figured I would add pictures to better explain my process. I used to hate my C-hook only KA mixer... so envious of others with a spiral mixer. Now that I've been doing this method for a while, I have no reason to upgrade (aside from doing large batches).

So for anyone interested, here it goes:

1: Slowly incorporate 75% of the flour just until mixed (will be lumpy)
2: First high speed mix @ speed 6 for 30 seconds. Since only 75% of the flour is used, it will not be kneading one mass of dough. Instead you will start to see webbing of dough being slung against the side of the bowl like cotton candy. This is the gluten developing.
3: Rest for 10 minutes (it will still look lumpy after initial mix)
4: Add remaining 25% of flour, slowly incorporate until no dry flour visible, then hit the throttle again (speed 6 for 30 seconds).
You'll notice this time you are mixing one mass of dough. Also, it will slap the dough around the bowl so quickly that eventually the bowl is clean, that is, you will have little to no loss of flour in your final dough ball.
5: Second 10 minute rest. The picture still looks a little lumpy, but the next step takes care of that
6: I left the hook down in the dough for the rest for no real reason, but it should really be up during the final rest. You can see when I went to pull the hook out, the dough stretched into a nice smooth skin. Kneading is complete
7: Ball after second rest. When you go to ball it will feel and look very smooth with no tears. All done!


I do this from memory now, it's really simple after you do it once. I hope this helps somebody.
Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2013, 08:42:13 PM »
Josh,

I just looked how you mixed your dough with your hook for your Kitchen Aid mixer.  I only have a spiral hook and a flat beater for my Kitchen Aid.  I wonder how my spiral hook would work compared to the C hook you use.  Do you know if my spiral hook would work the same as your C hook?

Norma   
 
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Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2013, 08:52:28 PM »
Norma,

Your spiral hook should do better than my C hook, and you don't need to do high speeds. The reason I eventually came up with this technique is because my KA does not accept the spiral hook.

No need to try this method!
Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2013, 09:53:19 PM »
Norma,

Your spiral hook should do better than my C hook, and you don't need to do high speeds. The reason I eventually came up with this technique is because my KA does not accept the spiral hook.

No need to try this method!

Josh,

I did high mix speeds before, but that was mostly for higher hydrations doughs.  If I want to make your same dough to get the spotting I would think I would have to follow your mix methods.  I don't know if the spots might have come from high mixing speeds and excessive oxidation of the dough or not by destroying the carotenoids in the flour, but would not think so since your high mix speeds are only for a short while that would not happen.  I have to think that over for a little.  :-\

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2013, 10:31:22 PM »
Josh,

I did high mix speeds before, but that was mostly for higher hydrations doughs.  If I want to make your same dough to get the spotting I would think I would have to follow your mix methods.  I don't know if the spots might have come from high mixing speeds and excessive oxidation of the dough or not by destroying the carotenoids in the flour, but would not think so since your high mix speeds are only for a short while that would not happen.  I have to think that over for a little.  :-\

Norma

You are clearly more knowledgeable on this than I. Please let me know if you decide to follow through with the experiment!
Josh

Offline norma427

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #27 on: October 01, 2013, 06:28:19 AM »
You are clearly more knowledgeable on this than I. Please let me know if you decide to follow through with the experiment!

Josh,

Really I am not knowledgeable on doing short mixes at high speeds with a dough like you are making.  I don't think it hurts anything, but am not sure.  I make higher hydration doughs with my flat beater and do mix for 2 long periods and that doesn't seem to hurt the dough at all and I never saw spots on those dough balls even after 4 days.  I wonder if I used my flat beater instead of my spiral hook if that would make any differences in how your dough would turn out for me.  I have to search here on the forum to see if anyone else did something like you are doing, or see if anyone else got the spotty dough as fast as you did.

Norma 
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2013, 01:18:37 PM »
Josh,

I have been meaning for some time to try out the method you outlined in Reply 22 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg262525.html#msg262525. So, today, I decided to try it using the following dough formulation:

King Arthur Bread Flour (with added VWG) (100%):
Water (52%):
IDY (0.28%):
Salt (1.75%):
Olive Oil (1%):
Vegetable (Soybean) Oil (4%):
Total (159.03%):
189.99 g  |  6.7 oz | 0.42 lbs
98.79 g  |  3.48 oz | 0.22 lbs
0.53 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.18 tsp | 0.06 tbsp
3.32 g | 0.12 oz | 0.01 lbs | 0.6 tsp | 0.2 tbsp
1.9 g | 0.07 oz | 0 lbs | 0.42 tsp | 0.14 tbsp
7.6 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 1.67 tsp | 0.56 tbsp
302.14 g | 10.66 oz | 0.67 lbs | TF = N/A

Here are my observations and comments:

First, I had a difficult time incorporating 75% of the flour mix (flour plus IDY plus vital wheat gluten) using just the C-hook. I found myself using a long, thin-bladed spatula to help push the flour mix into the path of the C-hook. When I eventually managed to get the dough formed, and went to speed 6 for 30 seconds, the C-hook and dough pretty much stuck together, with little of the dough being spun to the sides of the mixer bowl. However, there was some dough stuck at the bottom of the mixer bowl in the middle. After the 10 minute rest period, I added the remaining 25% of the flour mix. Again, I had difficulty combining everything using just the C-hook. So, I switched to the flat beater attachment to do the combining. Once that was done, I switched back to the C-hook and went to speed 6 again for 30 seconds. This time, the dough did get tossed around and I ended up with a dough ball that seemed to be in pretty good shape. I won't know for sure until sometime tomorrow or the following day when I try to open up the dough ball into a skin.

It is quite possible that my dough ball was too small for your method. Or maybe the hydration, at 52%, was too low even if there was also 5% oil.

If I were to repeat the process, I think that I would use the flat beater attachment to combine everything, which is a method I have used countless times elsewhere, and maybe even see if I can use speed 6 with the flat beater attachment for the first phase without harming anything. Then, I would switch to the C-hook for the final spin at speed 6 for 30 seconds. My usual practice at this point in the kneading process would be to knead the dough for about 7 minutes at speed 2-3 using the C-hook.

I usually find these kinds of exercises fun and interesting. And this time was no exception ;D.

Peter



Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2013, 02:50:18 PM »
I'm glad you attempted this method Peter. I was surprised you even attempted it at 52% hydration, but it is interesting to see your results.

Interesting as well that you mentioned the size of the dough ball may be to blame. I did a relatively small batch this past weekend (around 400g total), and I noticed this issue as well. I suppose this method may be best within a small window of dough weight, around 500-800grams, which coincidentally is usually the size I'm dealing with.

I hope you would give it one more try with a hydration closer to 60%, and a dough ball size of between 500-800 grams. I'm still quite happy with this method.
Josh


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #30 on: October 17, 2013, 03:32:59 PM »
Josh,

The dough ball that I made using your method was the latest of a series of 23 test dough balls that I made over the past few months as part of the Tomato Pies thread that Norma started. Almost all of the dough balls had hydration values of about 52-59% and oil from zero to about 5%. What I found was that a dough with a hydration on the low side, say, 53%, and oil on the high side, say, 5%, performed pretty much the same in the mixer bowl and on the bench as a dough with a hydration on the high side, say, 57%, and oil on the low side, say, 1%. I had never run such tests before and I must say that I was somewhat surprised by the results. I could not tell the difference between the two extremes in the mixer.

Since my tests have been with small dough balls, I might try using the combination of flat beater attachment and C-hook but up the speed (to speed 6 or more) when using the C-hook. So, it would be a combination of the method I have been using and your method, and would include the two rest periods.

Peter

Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #31 on: October 17, 2013, 08:25:27 PM »
That sounds like an interesting experiment Peter.

Be careful when you use the beater and my method, even if the dough balls are small. It may cause a lot of stress to your machine, and I don't want to be the reason your KA becomes damaged. I've never personally used the flat beater at a high speed, but if you do let me know how it works out. It does seem reasonable that it would work better with smaller batches.

 
Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2013, 06:55:23 PM »
Josh,

I've returned to report on the results of the De Lorenzo/Sloan test dough ball as set forth in Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg284000.html#msg284000.

To set the stage for my report on that dough ball, I let it cold ferment for about 24 hours. The spacing of the poppy seeds indicated a rise of about 42.4%. That was less than I would have expected but it has recently been quite a bit cooler than normal where I live in Texas and dough balls under such a condition do not rise as fast as usual. However, after 25 dough balls on the De Lorenzo project, I have come to learn a few things about how dough behaves. So, when a dough does not rise to the level I would prefer, I simply let it rest at room temperature until it reaches the desired degree of volume expansion. Sometimes I will flatten the dough ball so that it warms up faster but I will often just leave the poppy seeds in place on the dough ball to monitor the progress of the dough. I have also come to know about when to open up the dough ball. It is all based on the feel of the dough. It should be soft, not stiff. Temperature-wise, it might be around 65-70 degrees F. In Texas, especially in the summer, it does not take long to reach that point.

For the dough ball made in accordance with Reply 28 mentioned above, I let it rise at room temperature (about 72 degrees F) for about two hours. It was soft to the touch, so I opened it up to form a skin. I had no problem doing this but I was perhaps a bit too aggressive in trying to open up the dough ball to form a skin. Maybe you have not been following Norma's tomato pies thread, but at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, dough balls are opened to form skins in about 25 seconds. In my case, I came reasonably close but in the process I ended up with a small tear in the dough. It was easy to repair but I would have preferred to avoid such a result. Also, overall, the skin was not quite as robust as other De Lorenzo clone test doughs I have created in the course of the De Lorenzo project. Hopefully, when I adjust the dough making process along the lines you described but using the flat beater attachment at high speed, I hope to end up with a better dough ball to test. As long as I don't use all of the flour mix at one time, I think that the flat beater attachment will tolerate higher speeds than I have been using. My mixer and I have developed an understanding after over 25 years and it talks to me when I am being too hard on it. Harsh words are never spoken.

Since you use Lidia Bastianich dough kneading method, I thought that you might find it interesting, and maybe even a bit amusing, that Sam Amico, one of the De Lorenzo clan who now runs De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, was once asked to participate in a book tour event that featured Lidia and a book she had written. Sam was told that he would have 15 minutes to feature one of his tomato pies. You can read the more detailed account of how Sam reacted to the idea of being on the same stage as Lidia, at http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/10/tv_cook_to_come_to_trenton_ven.html, but the punchline he delivered was that he could make a pizza in 30 seconds. When Norma and Trenton Bill were at Sam's place, Norma saw the workers open up skins in about 25 seconds. That left 5 seconds to add the cheese and sauce. Sam is now 42 years old and he has been making pizzas since he was about 14 years old but that has not discouraged or deterred me from trying to match his speed even if I end up with an occasional hole in the skin :-D.

Peter

Offline norma427

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2013, 10:00:42 PM »
Peter,

I find it interesting and amusing that Sam Amico was petrified by the prospects of sharing the stage with Lidia Bastianich.  I sure would not think Sam Amico would fret over anything.

I also find it amusing that you are not discouraged or deterred from matching Sam Amico's speed in opening a dough.  :-D

Norma
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Offline JD

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #34 on: October 18, 2013, 10:20:58 PM »
Josh,

I've returned to report on the results of the De Lorenzo/Sloan test dough ball as set forth in Reply 28 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24265.msg284000.html#msg284000.

To set the stage for my report on that dough ball, I let it cold ferment for about 24 hours. The spacing of the poppy seeds indicated a rise of about 42.4%. That was less than I would have expected but it has recently been quite a bit cooler than normal where I live in Texas and dough balls under such a condition do not rise as fast as usual. However, after 25 dough balls on the De Lorenzo project, I have come to learn a few things about how dough behaves. So, when a dough does not rise to the level I would prefer, I simply let it rest at room temperature until it reaches the desired degree of volume expansion. Sometimes I will flatten the dough ball so that it warms up faster but I will often just leave the poppy seeds in place on the dough ball to monitor the progress of the dough. I have also come to know about when to open up the dough ball. It is all based on the feel of the dough. It should be soft, not stiff. Temperature-wise, it might be around 65-70 degrees F. In Texas, especially in the summer, it does not take long to reach that point.

For the dough ball made in accordance with Reply 28 mentioned above, I let it rise at room temperature (about 72 degrees F) for about two hours. It was soft to the touch, so I opened it up to form a skin. I had no problem doing this but I was perhaps a bit too aggressive in trying to open up the dough ball to form a skin. Maybe you have not been following Norma's tomato pies thread, but at De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, dough balls are opened to form skins in about 25 seconds. In my case, I came reasonably close but in the process I ended up with a small tear in the dough. It was easy to repair but I would have preferred to avoid such a result. Also, overall, the skin was not quite as robust as other De Lorenzo clone test doughs I have created in the course of the De Lorenzo project. Hopefully, when I adjust the dough making process along the lines you described but using the flat beater attachment at high speed, I hope to end up with a better dough ball to test. As long as I don't use all of the flour mix at one time, I think that the flat beater attachment will tolerate higher speeds than I have been using. My mixer and I have developed an understanding after over 25 years and it talks to me when I am being too hard on it. Harsh words are never spoken.

Since you use Lidia Bastianich dough kneading method, I thought that you might find it interesting, and maybe even a bit amusing, that Sam Amico, one of the De Lorenzo clan who now runs De Lorenzo/Robbinsville, was once asked to participate in a book tour event that featured Lidia and a book she had written. Sam was told that he would have 15 minutes to feature one of his tomato pies. You can read the more detailed account of how Sam reacted to the idea of being on the same stage as Lidia, at http://www.nj.com/mercer/index.ssf/2011/10/tv_cook_to_come_to_trenton_ven.html, but the punchline he delivered was that he could make a pizza in 30 seconds. When Norma and Trenton Bill were at Sam's place, Norma saw the workers open up skins in about 25 seconds. That left 5 seconds to add the cheese and sauce. Sam is now 42 years old and he has been making pizzas since he was about 14 years old but that has not discouraged or deterred me from trying to match his speed even if I end up with an occasional hole in the skin :-D.

Peter


Thanks for the update Peter. I hope your next attempt with the flat beater yields better results. One thing I'm just now realizing is that 75% flour for my dough (62% hydration plus ~2% oil) is not the same as 75% of your 58% total hydration dough. This would explain one of the reasons you had a difficult time incorporating all the flour at the first step, and possibly why it didn't work at all with the C hook. Perhaps I should update my post to show my instructions are for 64% effective hydration doughs.

How did the dough feel after your final rest? It's not listed in my instructions, but I under-knead a bit because I typically do a 3 day cold ferment. I know you are experienced enough to make any necessary changes if the dough felt under-kneaded after the final rest.

I will be making a small (210 gram) pizza dough tomorrow night and I will also try to use the flat beater. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the article on Lidia and Sam. 30 seconds is quite fast to make a pizza, and I'm certainly nowhere near that fast. I'm not surprised you can do it just as fast.
 

Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #35 on: October 19, 2013, 09:56:34 AM »
How did the dough feel after your final rest? It's not listed in my instructions, but I under-knead a bit because I typically do a 3 day cold ferment. I know you are experienced enough to make any necessary changes if the dough felt under-kneaded after the final rest.

I will be making a small (210 gram) pizza dough tomorrow night and I will also try to use the flat beater. I'll let you know how it goes.

Thanks for the article on Lidia and Sam. 30 seconds is quite fast to make a pizza, and I'm certainly nowhere near that fast. I'm not surprised you can do it just as fast.
Josh,

I would say that the dough ball looked and felt pretty much like the other De Lorenzo clone test dough balls that I made. But your question raises a good point that we have not discussed before. And that has to do with the duration of the knead. We used to have a member by the name of ThunderStik who would routinely knead the dough for 25 minutes or more. He once even kneaded for 50 minutes but that was for just a test to satisfy his curiosity. But what he observed was that it took considerably longer for the dough to be usable when it was subjected to a long knead. I think the reason was that the gluten structure was so fully developed, with great strength, that it took the enzymes in the flour and the acids formed in the dough during fermentation a lot longer to attack the gluten and weaken it to the point where the dough could be opened easily to form a skin.

What I think is the object lesson to take away from all this is that knead time is not a one-size-fits-all kind of thing. It has to be related to the intended fermentation time and also the type of dough being made. In my case, with the De Lorenzo clone dough balls, I think that the gluten has to be quite well developed in order to endure the type of fairly rough handling it is subjected to on the bench, where it has to be opened into a very thin and robust skin and ready to go in about 25 seconds. I was doing things to try to match my dough to their dough, but mostly from a physical standpoint and without knowing the exact dough recipe the De Lorenzo's were using.

Opening up dough balls in 25 seconds is more a matter of experience and practice than knowledge. It is far easier to do in a commercial setting where everything is pretty standardized and where we are talking about one type of dough that has been thoroughly mastered. It was reported that De Lorenzo/Hudson used to make on average about 200 pizzas a night. Toward the end of its tenure, the hours at De Lorenzo/Hudson were 4PM-9PM. That is a lot of practice in opening up dough balls. And, I believe that was pretty much Sam and his father Gary who made the pizzas. In a home setting, we have the luxury of taking our time. That makes it hard to match professionals. I don't think I will ever be able to develop the speed that Sam and Gary achieved after all of their years in the business.

Peter

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2013, 08:24:43 AM »
Peter,

I tried your suggestion on using the paddle attachment exclusively on a 60% hydration dough around 210grams total size. It worked much better than the dough hook since it was so small, but it seemed to put a lot of stress on the machine at higher speeds. I ended up keeping the tilt lock off to help reduce the stress a bit, and also raised the tilt while mixing to reduce it further.

With such a small amount and the apparent abuse on the machine, I'm not sure I will use the paddle attachment again. As a positive note it seemed to produce a well structured dough fairly quickly. I think I'll just do stretch and folds when working with such a small amount.



Josh

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: Lidia's Italy & use of KA mixer
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2013, 11:15:59 AM »
Josh,

I ran a simple test to see how using the flat beater attachment would work at speed 6 for a good part of the mixing and initial kneading process. I intentionally used a fairly low hydration, 51%, along with oil at 5%, for a total of 56%. The flour weight was about 191 grams, and the final dough ball weight was about 302 grams. After placing the water, salt and oil in the mixer bowl, and stirring to dissolve the salt, I gradually added the flour and IDY mixture while the flat beater attachment was operating at speed 6. I kept this up until I saw that the flat beater attachment was clearly starting to struggle. So, at this point, I stopped the mixer and calculated how much of the flour and IDY mixture it took to reach that point. It was 73.2%. I then ran the mixer at speed 2, with the flat beater attachment still in place, and gradually added the rest of the flour mixture. At a hydration of 51% and 5% oil, it took quite a while for the flat beater attachment to take up the rest of the flour mixture. After removing the flat beater attachment and letting the dough rest for 10 minutes, I inserted the C-hook and continued the process as you have described in this thread.

I did not experience any machine stress in using the above protocol. But one thing I learned about my stand mixer with the flat beater attachment and the C-hook is that the mixer's practical limit in terms of hydration and oil usage is about 56%. Anything lower than that is likely not to produce a smooth and cohesive dough ball for most styles of pizzas, although it might be fine for a dough that is to be run through a dough roller or sheeter to make a thin crust style pizza. I would also be concerned that the dough isn't kneaded so much that it results in an overly elastic dough in relation to the intended fermentation time. I have been aiming for a one-day cold fermented dough that is not overly elastic.

I hope to repeat the above experiment again sometime soon, also with a low combined hydration and oil usage to see if the method described above can yield a one-day cold fermented dough with good extensibility. However, that said, I am fairly confident from what I have seen thus far is that the results will be a fairly robust dough ball with good strength.

Peter



 

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