Author Topic: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor  (Read 2674 times)

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Offline nyyankees325

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WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« on: April 03, 2013, 10:15:03 PM »
hi, i have a question i built an Alan scott bread oven a few years ago and just started taking it apart. does anyone have any tips, i was trying to salvage the floor because that would be alot to take apart does any one think it would be a bad idea to build the dome shaped Neapolitan style on top of this base, maybe i can chip off the vermiculite mixture off so it will just be the cement and fire brick. in the alan scott oven the floor would always be pretty hot around 500 to 600 if that matters but the dome with the cement shell took way to long to heat up. im attaching a picture of how the floor looks(this oven isn't mine)


Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #1 on: April 03, 2013, 10:32:25 PM »
I think you may have the same problem managing the heat. You floor may be too thick compare to the dome thickness and you may not be able to manage the floor and dome temperature to cook Neapolitan pizza.

Would suggest you turn your bricks to be on their medium side, which would give you about 2,5" thickness.

I am sure someone on this forum has actually done something like that.

Antoine
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Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #2 on: April 04, 2013, 08:23:53 AM »
The floor is the worst part of the AS design.  You have gone this far, you may as well do it right.  Remove the floor,  put down insulation, either an inch or two of cal-sil board or 4" of perlcrete/vermicucrete, then lay down a 2-1/2" firebrick floor.

Offline nyyankees325

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #3 on: April 04, 2013, 09:02:05 AM »
Thank you for the response! So i will definitely take up the floor like you said at this point why not. Is there any advantage to the cal- sil board vs the vermiculite - Portland or perlcrete? If using vermiculite what ratio do you recommend ? And then on top of the four inches will go the flat fire brick mortared in correct ?thank you !

Offline breadstoneovens

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2013, 10:30:56 AM »
If you use 4 cuft of perlite / vermiculite mixed with 1/2 bag of portland cement you get 1 to 5 ratio if I remember correctly. That should give you about 72 lbs per square inch of pressure resistance which is plenty.

Just lay a layer of sand on top of the insulation to be able to level the bricks, but do not mortar them so they can expend and retract freely.

Antoine
WFO cooking is about passion.

Offline nyyankees325

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2013, 11:00:47 AM »
In the forno bravo PDF they laid their floor with 1 part sand 1 part fire lay with water is that better then just the sand ? Also when the circular soldier course is done and I put the buttress is that the same 4 or 5 " vermiculite to Portland mixture ?

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2013, 11:44:49 AM »
What are you planning on using to buttress the perlcrete, since it has no tensile strength.



Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2013, 11:46:12 AM »
A half bag of portland=1/2 cuft, so 1/2 bag of portland to 4 cuft of perlite is 10-1.  I use 8-1 under the hearth.

Offline Serpentelli

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2013, 12:32:44 PM »
The floor is the worst part of the AS design.

Tom,

What is the problem with these  floors, if you don't mind me asking? The orientation of the firebricks?

Thanks!

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2013, 12:54:36 PM »
The design relies on isolation only for insulation.  The insulation that exists is under the concrete slab, which is isolated from the base by rebar.  The firebrick increase the heated mass even more by being on edge.  As a design for a commercial bread oven it is not really even that good because of the lack of enveloping insulation.  The entire concept is of heating the (huge) mass almost through to the outer side, then hoping that it will deviate from thermal principals and flow back toward the hot side.

If you own a forest and want to cook a whole lot of bread every now and then, it is a passable design, but not really suited to normal home use for either bread or pizza.


Offline Serpentelli

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2013, 01:02:19 PM »
Thanks Tom,

That is very informative.

John K
I'm not wearing hockey pads!

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2013, 01:13:05 PM »
Realize though, that there are literally thousands of AS ovens out there, and most people who use them have no other point of reference so they love their oven, and that is fine too.

Offline nyyankees325

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #12 on: April 05, 2013, 12:08:57 AM »
In the forno napoletano PDF  they used kasto lite 22 , is that better for the buttress part ?
The Alan Scott oven takes forever to heat up, I ended up never using it.

Offline nyyankees325

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2013, 12:13:09 AM »
I also just wanted to confirm that I'm understanding right, so it would be ok to Take up the firebrick but i can leave the cement floor which I'll put the insulation flooring on and then the new firebrick layer flat?

Offline Polo

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #14 on: April 05, 2013, 08:48:17 AM »
Realize though, that there are literally thousands of AS ovens out there, and most people who use them have no other point of reference so they love their oven, and that is fine too.

Forgive the hijack, but I am looking to offer the viewpoints of a bread baker. Perhaps I've let my feelings on this matter fester a bit too long, and I apologize in advance for this rant.

I own and operate a 32"x 38" Alan Scott style oven, built from "Ovencrafters" plans. I primarily use this oven to bake bread (obviously, it is a bread oven) once every two weeks, for a local restaraunt.

The firing and saturation of this oven,  from ambient to bread baking temps, requires about 7.5 cubic feet of hardwood. This amount of wood will saturate the oven to 550 to 600 degrees 3.5' to 4" deep into the cladding. Once saturated I am able to bake 72 lbs of bread using dough with a hydration of 73% (three batches of 24 lbs each). Once baking is done, the oven temperature is typically still in the 350 to 400 degree range, and by weeks end it is in the neighborhood of 150 to 170 degrees.

For anyone out there that built an Alan Scott style oven primarily to bake pizza, you certainly have made a mistake. However, these ovens have their place, and are hardly the wood gobbling monsters that you make them out to be. Perhaps I am being a bit touchy, but it seems that Alan takes it on the chin from you quite a bit of the time, even to the point of recommended book burnings (on another site). I don't think that your appraisal of his (or Dan Wing's) contributions to WFO construction or use, in this thread or others, are fair or deserved.

For the record, I do own a forest, and have yet to make even the smallest dent in it.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #15 on: April 05, 2013, 09:12:28 AM »
No argument from me, you fit exactly the criteria I laid out above. 

As a counterpoint, I burn 2-3 cuft of wood to a temp of 1000 degrees, cook 4-8 pizzas and one batch, 4-6 loaves, of bread the next day at 500-550 degree and it doesn't go back to ambient for another 3 or 4 days.

The existing concrete slab is fine, NY Yankee.

Offline nyyankees325

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #16 on: April 05, 2013, 09:27:07 AM »
Thank you for your help!  do you have any preference when laying the firebrick sand or the fire clay plus sand wet mixture ?

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #17 on: April 05, 2013, 09:41:49 AM »
The damp mix makes it easier.

Offline Polo

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #18 on: April 05, 2013, 11:26:38 AM »
No argument from me, you fit exactly the criteria I laid out above. 

As a counterpoint, I burn 2-3 cuft of wood to a temp of 1000 degrees, cook 4-8 pizzas and one batch, 4-6 loaves, of bread the next day at 500-550 degree and it doesn't go back to ambient for another 3 or 4 days.

The existing concrete slab is fine, NY Yankee.


LOL

Something tells me that you still have not seen the error of your ways. That's OK though, I expected nothing less.

Offline Tscarborough

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Re: WFO- building Neapolitan style on Alan Scott floor
« Reply #19 on: April 05, 2013, 12:41:41 PM »
It would be simple to improve the design while maintaining it's current strengths, all it is lacking is insulation.  Mass is not insulation.


 

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