Author Topic: My first NY style  (Read 12458 times)

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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #25 on: May 04, 2013, 03:17:05 PM »
No canned shrooms, or meat balls on this one, just cheese. This is a 12" pie.  Same as before except for a 3 day rest in the fridge, and I upped  the hydration to 63%. I did not knead the dough as long as the last pies, 5 minutes. I overcooked this one by 15 seconds, It was getting lightly brown and I thought I would wait another 15 seconds then check again. I was surprised how dark it got in the short amount of time. It tasted OK, no burnt flavor. This pie is thinner, but is it too thin? The last pic is fuzzy, but gives a good idea of the thickness of the pie. The crust was very crispy, and not very chewy. It had a nice lite bite. Also the cornicoine is much smaller than the past pies. I would have liked it a little bigger, it'll be an easy adjustment on my next pie. So is this one a little closer to NY style?


Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2013, 06:31:25 PM »
Another try. I did a 3 day rise in the fridge. I upped the hydration to 65%. I topped with fresh shrooms, and Lovera Italian sausage from Krebs OK. Krebs is an Italian community in southern Oklahoma. I used a blend of 4 italian cheeses, and my own red sauce, which included ovo, fresh ground pepper, garlic powder, basil, and oregano. The crust was light, crispy and chewy. The rim was crispy and chewy. The skin was easy to form. I made the cornicione a little bigger than my last pie. I would have liked it a little puffier. I only used 1/4 teaspoon of yeast , maybe I should have used more. But I suspect it may be the way I cooked the pie. I was afraid the skin might stick to the peel since it was a high hydration dough, So, I cheated and cooked the pie for three minutes on parchment paper on the stone. I slid the paper out from under the skin after 3 minutes and let it finish on the stone. I don't know if that would effect the oven spring on the dough or not. Any thoughts on that?  All in all it was a tasty pie. Plus I did not burn it this time.
 
 This is for a 14 inch
  Flour 100% 253.73 grams
  Water 65% 164.92 grams
  IDY    1%   .84 tsp
  Salt    1%   .45tsp
  Olive oil 2%  1.13tsp
  Sugar   2%     1.27 tsp
  Vital Wheat Gluten 1% .96 tsp
  Total 172%  436.41grams
 

Online Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2013, 07:48:05 PM »
Nick,

Your pizza looks fine. Also, there is nothing wrong with using parchment paper the way that you used it. I'd rather be cautious and use parchment paper with a high hydration dough rather than risk losing the entire pizza because it sticks to the peel and loads improperly and maybe becomes misshapen or lands in the wrong place or scatters its topping all over the place. In my case, I think of the parchment paper option when the hydration gets above about 63%. I use the same hydration threshhold for a pizza screen since I don't want the wet dough seeping into the screen openings.

When I use parchment paper, I trim it to about the size of the pizza so that it doesn't catch fire in my oven. I yank the piece of parchment paper from under the pizza once the pizza sets up and is firm. To be on the safe side, I use my metal peel to lift the pizza up a bit so that I can easily remove the parchment paper. I can't say that I noticed any loss of oven spring as a result of using parchment paper. However, at a hydration of 65%, in my oven with a pizza stone that hydration value can impede the oven spring. It can be like trying to lift a sponge loaded with water. To overcome that problem, you would need a high oven temperature, higher than what you might be able to achieve in a standard unmodified home oven.

You indicated that you used only 1/4 teaspoon IDY yet your dough formulation says close to 7/8 teaspoon. Can you clarify which amount you used?

On an unrelated matter, unless you are on a sodium-restricted diet or are otherwise trying to limit your salt intake, you might want to increase the amount of salt to about 1.75-2%. That is much more typical of a NY style.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2013, 08:05:29 PM »
Thanks for the info Pete. For the yeast I was using 1/4 tsp because on your NY style thread you had mentioned that 1/4 tsp to 1 1/2 tsp would work OK. Since it was a three day rise, I thought It would be safer to go with less IDY. I'll up the amount in my next try. I wanted to see how a 65% skin would feel and bake. I think for my next try I will go back to 62% or 63% to see if I get a better oven spring. My pies seemed to rise better with the lower hydration. I'l adjust the salt next time. I cut the parchment paper pretty close to the skin size. My oven only goes to 550 degrees, and I have had no problem with the paper catching fire. I wait three minutes then I lift the edge of the pie and yank the paper out. I liked the way the pie turned out and tasted, the three day rise really helps the flavor of the dough. I think I'm getting pretty close the way I want my pies to be. I think what you said about the hydration, may be just what I am looking for in oven rise. As you can tell, I like to experiment till I get it right, Thanks for the help and encouragement.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2013, 08:08:51 PM by nick57 »

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2013, 08:15:55 PM »
Nick,

Having seen your pizzas to date, and also your cracker style pizzas, I am not worried about you. You are a natural with good instincts and fully capable of figuring things out. Experimenting is the best way to see for yourself how things work and affect your results. Just keep the changes to a minimum for each experiment. Otherwise you will end up dazed and confused :-D.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #30 on: May 07, 2013, 08:37:06 PM »
Nice micro blisters and smaller "meat balls" Nick.  ;D

Bob
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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #31 on: May 07, 2013, 10:21:37 PM »
I  spend a lot of time on this forum checking out all different styles of pizza. One thing I have learned, there is a lot of science going one here. I think the cracker style is the hardest to learn, I spent 2 years with the insight of Pete and just as important others to get a crust that I love. I am now onto NY style. With Pete's help I think I am getting very close to the NY style. Pizza making is something people fall in love with, the excitement is seeing your friends reactions when they have a bite. I did use more red sauce on this pie, and less cheese and fewer toppings. I wanted the sauce to add more to the flavor to the pie. So , thanks to everyone who has helped me in my quest for pie perfection. On to the next  pie and beyond!!!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #32 on: May 07, 2013, 11:09:02 PM »
You are very astute in your approach to pizza making Nick...this forum benefits from all your contributions and I feel fortunate that you came along and found yourself deciding to hang out here man. Thanks.  :chef:

Bob
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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #33 on: May 07, 2013, 11:40:15 PM »
Thanks Bob! All the people here have one quest, the best pie we can make. What fun! Who could ask for anything more? Well , maybe the girlfriend or wife, but you  can always ply them with a wonderful slice of heaven.


Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #34 on: May 14, 2013, 07:05:43 PM »
  Well, after going for the Holy Grail of high hydration, Pete reminded me that I might be asking too much of my home oven. He was right, not enough heat  for 65% hydration. My crust kept getting worse. I came back to earth, and after reading a lot of NY style threads, I went back to a 60% hydration which seems to be most the most popular with home oven use, and worked pretty good for me. I topped this pie with 4 cheese's, grilled chicken, bacon, maters, and onions. Instead of a red sauce I used a pesto sauce. It was a very good pie, the crust was crispy and light, and the toppings were a nice change of pace. The Cornicione was light, crispy, and tender. I'm going to stick with this hydration for a while, and see if I can keep getting the same results before I do any minor tweaking.
 The dough was the same as the last. I did up the yeast to 1/2 tsp, and the salt to 1.74% per Pete's suggestion. The finished dough ball temp was 79 degrees. It sat in the fridge for 3 days, I had a temp probe next to the dough and the temp stayed around 36 degrees. I let the dough sit on the counter for 2 hours before I formed the skin. I used parchment paper again, and it did not seem to effect the oven spring. It cooked for about 7 minutes, the last minute I used the broiler. The dough was easy to form, and I think the three day rise improved the flavor, and browning.

  I have been using a tsp of VWG in the last few versions. I am using KABF. I'm wondering if this is helping or am I am wasting my time and money doing this.

 The last two pics are of my NY style bread. Just for fun I used the same recipe I made this pie with . I did up the yeast for the quick rise, and butter instead of oil. It was one of my better loafs, I could tell the high hydration helped the texture of the bread. It was really great the next day when I put it in the toaster.

My next pie will be more in the line of Ny style, Pepperoni. Thanks Pete for all your insight, I think I am back on the right track again.
 
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 07:07:33 PM by nick57 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #35 on: May 14, 2013, 07:29:14 PM »
Wonderful results Nick...very nice all around.  :chef:
How long did you rise the bread for; thanks!

Bob
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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #36 on: May 14, 2013, 07:44:10 PM »
Nick,

All of the experimenting you are doing is a good thing because you will better remember what you do as opposed to what you might read. The value of reading is that it forces you to think, and it gives you ideas on things to try next. It is an iterative process that eventually should lead you to the best solutions for your particular situation.

On the matter of the use of VWG, if you are using roughly the same amount of KABF as you have been using pretty much all along, and if the VWG is the Bob's Red Mill brand, I calculate that the effect of using 1% VWG is to increase the protein content of the KABF to about 13.3%. It will be around 13.22% for a brand of VWG with a slightly lower protein content. But those are both good numbers for the NY style. As to whether to continue to use VWG, all I can say is that some people love it and some absolutely detest it. So, my practice is to tell people is try it and make up their own minds.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #37 on: May 14, 2013, 07:50:31 PM »
I put the bread dough in a covered bowl for an hour in a warm oven. I then shaped the dough into a log put it in the pan and let it rise till it was about an inch higher than the top of the bread pan, about another hour. I cooked it at 400 degrees for 30 minutes, then removed the loaf from the pan and set it on the pizza stone. I used a thermometer and when the loaf got to 205 degrees, about another 10 minutes. I then removed it to a cooling rack for an hour before slicing. I like the results that I get by removing the loaf from the pan for the last 10 minutes or so. I think I like this recipe more than my go to recipe for a loaf bread.

 I used 2 tsps of IDY, and the same amount of salt and oil/butter and VWG as in the pizza. I figured the 60% hydration may give the bread some nice structure. I liked the open and airy crumb. I under knead my dough for pizza, but mixed this till it just passed the window pane test.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #38 on: May 14, 2013, 07:58:02 PM »
I put the bread dough in a covered bowl for an hour in a warm oven. I then shaped the dough into a log put it in the pan and let it rise till it was about an inch higher than the top of the bread pan, about another hour. I cooked it at 400 degrees for 30 minutes, then removed the loaf from the pan and set it on the pizza stone. I used a thermometer and when the loaf got to 205 degrees, about another 10 minutes. I then removed it to a cooling rack for an hour before slicing. I like the results that I get by removing the loaf from the pan for the last 10 minutes or so. I think I like this recipe more than my go to recipe for a loaf bread.

 I used 2 tsps of IDY, and the same amount of salt and oil/butter and VWG as in the pizza. I figured the 60% hydration may give the bread some nice structure. I liked the open and airy crumb. I under knead my dough for pizza, but mixed this till it just passed the window pane test.
Thank you for your great thorough instructions nick, you are doing interesting work here. What would you recommend if one desired a more closed/tighter crumb and an ever so slight sweet taste to this bread. I'm going to make this right away. Thanks!  :chef:

Bob
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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #39 on: May 14, 2013, 08:00:04 PM »
Thanks for the info on the VWG. I seem to like it, and I have plenty, so I might as well use it. I am going to stick with this formulation for a while. Once I get several consistent results, then I may fool around with a poolish, or a starter. But for the time being don't fix it if it ain't broken. It's kind of a wonderful feeling that I can make something better than I can purchase. Besides, it's always fun to put a smile on my friends faces when they have a taste. Thanks Peter! I'll post some pics or my pepperoni pie.

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #40 on: May 14, 2013, 08:18:12 PM »
I would use a little more sugar, or maybe honey. For a more a dense crumb, I would use less H20. Maybe try 50%. A lot of recipes use 1 cup of water to 2 1/2 to 3 cups of flour. I  like my bread a little more moist.
I used a standard loaf pan. This is what I used to make this loaf. The bread was even better on day two. As for in the toaster, it was wonderful. I  Did up the oil butter, sugar, salt and VGW. I did this because I was using more flour and water than in the pizza.

400 grams flour
240 grams water
2     tsp IDY
1 1/4     tsp salt
1 1/4     tsp sugar
1           tbls butter
1 1/4     tsp VWG
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 08:33:04 PM by nick57 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #41 on: May 14, 2013, 09:17:50 PM »
I would use a little more sugar, or maybe honey. For a more a dense crumb, I would use less H20. Maybe try 50%. A lot of recipes use 1 cup of water to 2 1/2 to 3 cups of flour. I  like my bread a little more moist.
I used a standard loaf pan. This is what I used to make this loaf. The bread was even better on day two. As for in the toaster, it was wonderful. I  Did up the oil butter, sugar, salt and VGW. I did this because I was using more flour and water than in the pizza.

400 grams flour
240 grams water
2     tsp IDY
1 1/4     tsp salt
1 1/4     tsp sugar
1           tbls butter
1 1/4     tsp VWG
Perfect...thanks!  8)
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #42 on: May 14, 2013, 11:19:51 PM »
Let me know how the loaf turns out. If ya have any problems let me know. I'll be baking another loaf later this week and see if I get the same results.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #43 on: May 14, 2013, 11:38:02 PM »
Let me know how the loaf turns out. If ya have any problems let me know. I'll be baking another loaf later this week and see if I get the same results.
So very nice man..I appreciate that Nick.  :chef:
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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #44 on: May 15, 2013, 10:33:31 PM »
I have several friends that want to make my pizza recipe. So I tried to give them the best advice on making the pies the way I do. The ingredient amounts may be off a little, but I thought making it easy for their first try was the way to go. After they get a feel for the process I could go ahead and help them tweak the recipe to their likings. Any thoughts you can give me on my post would be appreciated. I hope to help them in their quest, but I want to make it easy and not so hard that they give up.


 NY style pizza crust 14"

Flour        260 grams    9 oz King Arthur Bread Flour  Reasors has it.
Water      156 grams    5.4 oz
IDY          2.6 grams     1 teaspoon for a 1 day rest in fridge.  1/2 teaspoon for a 3 day rise (recommended.)
Salt          4.55 grams  1 1/4 teaspoon
Olive Oil  5 grams       1 1/4 teaspoon
Sugar      5 grams       1 1/4 teaspoon
VWG        2.6 grams   1 teaspoon   Vital Wheat Gluten helps make the flour stronger This is optional... Reasors has it.


These amounts are critical and must be weighed out, except for the items that have a teaspoon measurement. I use a digital scale I got from Bed Bath and Beyond. The brand name was The Biggest Looser... from the TV show. It cost $19.00. If ya got the dough, I mean money, go for one that reads 10 ths of grams. I use grams for measuring, it is more accurate than ounces. If you use volume measuring, you could end up with Papa Johns dough or Ci Ci style. Flour weight changes with humidity.  1 cup of water does not weigh 8 oz, it weighs 8.3 oz or so, 1 cup of flour can weigh as little 4.4 oz, which the combination of flour and water can really throw off your dough hydration levels. Not too much of a problem making bread, but can ruin a pizza dough.

You have to remember we are  trying to make a NY style crust at home. I lost sight of this and went off the range, and my pies got worse. This is difficult because home ovens usually only  go to 500 to 550 degrees. Most NY pizza places cook theirs between 600 to 900 degrees. This causes great oven spring or rise in the oven. Some NY styles only use flour, water, salt and yeast. To get good crust color, flavor, and texture in the home oven, this formula uses some oil and sugar and a high hydration dough. The hydration for this dough is 60%. I have gone up to 65%, but that does not work well in the home oven. Lower hydrations end up with a more bread like and dense crust, which by definition is not pizza dough.

Follow these steps in order to make the dough ball.

1  Fill the KA mixer bowl with the stated amount of very warm water 120 to 130 degrees. Add the salt and sugar to the water and whisk till dissolved.
2  Run the flour through a flour sifter, or a fine mesh strainer. Add the yeast and (VWG if using) and mix thoroughly.
3 Add the flour to the KA mixer bowl. Using the paddle attachment on speed 2, mix till all the dry flour is gone, about 2 minutes or less. Stop mixing.
4 Add the oil to the dough.  Using the paddle attachment, stir the oil and dough for about a minute. Switch out the paddle for the dough hook. Knead the dough on speed 2 for 5 minutes.  Remove the dough to the counter.
5 Form the dough into a tight smooth ball. Oil the bottom and sides of a flat bottomed container that has a tight fitting lid. I use an old 1 gallon ice cream bucket, and spray it with a light coating of Pam spray. Coat the dough ball with oil, place in the container and place the lid on it. Put in the fridge for 24 hours. For a better tasting crust with good color and flavor, leave in the fridge for 3 days. (recommended). For a couple of practice skins you could do a 24 hour rise, then use the dough to practice stretching the skins. I did this and it helped me when I was ready to go for broke,

Rise and shaping the dough.

Remove the dough ball from the fridge 2 hours before cooking. Dust the counter lightly with flour and place the dough on it. Dust the top of the dough lightly with flour and cover with a light towel, I use plastic wrap instead. Make sure the dough has room to rise a little during the 2 hour counter rest. I hand  shape the dough. I make a rim on the outside of the skin, and press down the dough with my fingers and then flip it upside down and stretch by sliding the dough with one hand and holding it with the other. I then pick up the dough with both hands and then using my knuckles I stretch the dough to the desired size. I then place the skin on parchment paper that is on the pizza peel. It won't effect the oven spring of the crust and you're are less likely to dump your pie or toppings on the bottom of the oven. When you get more confident at using the peel, forgo the parchment paper. Here is a link to hand making the skin from a world champion pie maker. I don't slap it like she does, I like to be more gentle and hand stretch. There are a lot of Youtube videos on knuckle stretching.  If you are afraid of hand stretching, I can give you a dough recipe that is formulated to make it easy to practice stretching the skin. It makes a skin more in the style of Mazzio's. With hand stretching take your time, if the dough does not want to stretch easily, stop and let it rest for a couple of minutes, then try again. If you made the dough correctly you should not have any problem getting to the size you want

 Cooking the pie

Now that you are ready to launch the pie into the oven, a few reminders.  Make sure you have the oven as high temp you can get. Let the stone heat up for at least an hour. The last two pies, I went an hour and a half for the warmup, which seemed to make a more brown crust. Place the skin on the stone, after 3 minutes lift the edge of the pie and slide out the parchment paper. Cook the pie till you like the color of the crust, 3 to 4 minutes. Remove the pie to a cooling rack for about 5 minutes. Slice and enjoy.

For a gas oven.

I have and electric oven. For the last minute of cooking I use the broiler to increase the color of the crust. Since your broiler is in the bottom of the stove, I would recommend moving the stone to an upper level of the stove. The radiant heat from the top will help in cooking the top at the same time as the bottom.

If you have any questions let me know. This is pretty exact, but I rounded some numbers to make it easier for first time pie makers.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:06:59 PM by nick57 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #45 on: May 15, 2013, 11:20:05 PM »
I think everything looks great Nick and your buddies are lucky to have a friend like you. It's quite a bit to take in for a first timer though so I hope they don't have any (blunt :)) distractions. Jus kidding.
Don't know what final dough temp you are trying to get them to...but hot water into a cold steel mixer bowl will cool down a bit.  ;)
Great job man!!  :chef:
(wish you were my friend 8))
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Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #46 on: May 15, 2013, 11:56:31 PM »
Bob you are a great friend!!!!!!! I am glad I have got to discuss our love of pies! I want to thank you for your insight in helping me making cracker crusts and NY style. Making great food is my love. I am a good artist, but making great eats for my friends is my true love. The dough should get between 79 and 85 degrees, most likely a lower temp on the finished dough. This is a first attempt for my friends, so I am trying to make it easy for them, Once they get addicted I can give a more exact formula. Thanks for your help and inspiration.  Friends are few and far between, but My True Friends are always there. Thanks Bob!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #47 on: May 16, 2013, 12:20:00 AM »
Bob you are a great friend!!!!!!! I am glad I have got to discuss our love of pies! I want to thank you for your insight in helping me making cracker crusts and NY style. Making great food is my love. I am a good artist, but making great eats for my friends is my true love. The dough should get between 79 and 85 degrees, most likely a lower temp on the finished dough. This is a first attempt for my friends, so I am trying to make it easy for them, Once they get addicted I can give a more exact formula. Thanks for your help and inspiration.  Friends are few and far between, but My True Friends are always there. Thanks Bob!
Wow  8)  Thanks so much man! I didn't mean that the way it sounded but you know what I mean.  ;D I'm not artistic but feel I should have been  ;)  and I notice in most artsy folks I know they have a strong desire within to treat their friends in a real nice way such as you have described, Nick, with your want of making good pizza for your pals and now actually trying to teach them. I just think it's great man and am glad to know you too.  :chef:

Bob
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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #48 on: May 16, 2013, 11:15:21 AM »
1 cup of flour can weigh up to 9 oz
Nick,

You did a nice job with your description of how to make a good NY style pizza in a standard home oven setting. However, is the 9-ounce figure for the weight of a cup of flour a typo? Typically, a cup of flour, for example, KABF, measured out volumetrically in accordance with the Textbook style, which is the method that flour millers and others (such as King Arthur) recommend, weighs about 4.4 ounces. This is in accordance with the Mass-Volume Conversion Calculator at http://foodsim.toastguard.com/. Going to a heavier flour measurement method ("Heavy") using that calculator gets you to about 6 ounces per cup, by weight. I would say that that is about the max that you are going to be able to get into a single one-cup measuring cup. And it is not the recommended method. A "Medium" method of flour measurement according to the abovementioned calculator, which may well be the most common method that home bakers use, will get you to about 5 ounces for the KABF.

I also noticed a typo under item 2 in your post. Specifically, "VHG" should be--VWG--. Correcting that will avoid having to do so if your friends start asking you what VHG is.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #49 on: May 16, 2013, 02:01:59 PM »
I goofed on the measurement for sure. I think I had brain overload. Oh well, I am no expert to say the least, Maybe I should stay in a Holiday Inn or what ever that hotel is where you git smarter. I tried to proof read the post, maybe I need new glasses. Most of my friends are pretty good cooks, and I did round off some numbers to make it easier for them. It should give them a good starting point. I did let them know about this site so they could check out some of the great ideas by the members of the forum.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 02:04:58 PM by nick57 »


 

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