Author Topic: My first NY style  (Read 8035 times)

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Offline nick57

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My first NY style
« on: April 06, 2013, 07:09:58 PM »
I have made the forum's NY style recipe before, and it was pretty good. So this time I decided to try the NY style from this thread New (2/07) NAPICS/Lehmann "Thin" NY Style Dough Recipe. I was worried that I had done something wrong because I did not get very much of a rise after 48 hours in the fridge. The ball looked too small for the 14" pizza the recipe said it would make. This was the easiest pizza I ever formed by hand. I was even able to toss it in the air with out tearing. I did have some problems. It seemed very thin for NY style, and I did not get very much browning on the crust. My oven temp was 550. Since I have been cooking Cracker crusts, I have not needed a peel. I cooked this crust in the pan for 3 minutes and then was able to move the pie directly on the stone for the rest of the bake. I'm going to get a peel for my next try. I may also increase the ingredients a bit to get a little thicker crust. I don't know if adding more sugar would help the crust brown, or maybe move the pizza closer to the top of the oven to help with the browning. Also I did not have any IDY, so I used ADY. Maybe I needed to use a little more yeast than the .27 teaspoon I used. All in all I was very pleased with outcome. The pizza was easy to bite, and the crust had a nice flavor. My taster said he really liked this style, and had more than his usual 2 slices. Any thought or ideas about getting my crust to brown up more?


Offline pythonic

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #1 on: April 06, 2013, 08:50:35 PM »
Not bad for your 1st ny pie bake.  How long was the bake time and what percent sugar?

Nate
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Offline chaspie

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #2 on: April 06, 2013, 09:43:46 PM »
I wish I knew enough to give you advice, but I'm a newbie too. 

I got the best top browning and edge rise I've ever managed on two pies I baked today.  I think it was because I increased my hydration slightly by about .5% from previous bakes, and added .75% sugar to the recipe.  I think it's possible that my previous attempts at making this dough resulted in over-proofing, so I eliminated the room temperature bulk rise and just balled and went straight into the fridge after a couple of stretch and folds on the bench.   

I bake directly on the stone, paint the edges of my pie with olive oil, and turn on the broiler part way through baking.  But I always do those things, and so while I think they may help improve top browning of the crust, it wasn't what made the difference for me today. 

Small dough balls don't seem to gain much in size after 48 hours in the fridge, but it can be difficult to judge the increase visually.  Somewhere on the forum is a description of the poppy seed method of judging dough rise.  I haven't tried it, but as I recall, you just put two poppy seeds on top of your dough ball when you put it in the fridge.  You might need to wait until the dough ball has relaxed in the plastic tub.  They should be 1 inch apart.  The dough is fully risen (doubled in bulk) when they measure 1.25 inches apart.  Do a search and double check, as I'm relaying this from memory.

To figure the thickness factor of your dough, take the dough ball weight in ounces, and divide it by pi times the radius of your pizza squared.  For example, my pies today were 12 inches.  My dough ball weight was 10.9 ounces, so 10.9/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.096 was my thickness factor.  I believe 0.1 is typical for a standard NY pie, with Elite style pies being thinner, maybe .07ish or so.

Again, I'm sure one of the more knowledgeable guys will be along shortly to give you better help.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #3 on: April 06, 2013, 10:03:17 PM »
I have made the forum's NY style recipe before, and it was pretty good. So this time I decided to try the NY style from this thread New (2/07) NAPICS/Lehmann "Thin" NY Style Dough Recipe. I was worried that I had done something wrong because I did not get very much of a rise after 48 hours in the fridge. The ball looked too small for the 14" pizza the recipe said it would make. This was the easiest pizza I ever formed by hand. I was even able to toss it in the air with out tearing. I did have some problems. It seemed very thin for NY style, and I did not get very much browning on the crust. My oven temp was 550. Since I have been cooking Cracker crusts, I have not needed a peel. I cooked this crust in the pan for 3 minutes and then was able to move the pie directly on the stone for the rest of the bake. I'm going to get a peel for my next try. I may also increase the ingredients a bit to get a little thicker crust. I don't know if adding more sugar would help the crust brown, or maybe move the pizza closer to the top of the oven to help with the browning. Also I did not have any IDY, so I used ADY. Maybe I needed to use a little more yeast than the .27 teaspoon I used. All in all I was very pleased with outcome. The pizza was easy to bite, and the crust had a nice flavor. My taster said he really liked this style, and had more than his usual 2 slices. Any thought or ideas about getting my crust to brown up more?
Nick,
Substituting  ady for idy(same amounts)) at this small of a dough amount should not give any problem. You should have seen more rise during ferment  than you experienced.
I am suspect of the yeast. Did you "bloom" the ady in warm water...if so, is it possible the water was too hot and thereby damaged the yeast?

Bob
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Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:38:20 AM »
Nick,

These are the threads that pertain to the dough formulation you used:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,4800.msg40779.html#msg40779, and

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9698.msg84195.html#msg84195.

I originally found the recipe at the PMQ Think Tank at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=8933#p8933.

I have several thoughts on what you did, and some suggestions, but before I offer them to you I have several questions.

1. What type and brand of flour did you use?

2. Did you use the ADY dry in the recipe or did you prehydrate the ADY like Bob mentioned and, if so, how specifically did you prehydrate it?

3. Did you make the dough using a stand mixer or other machine or was it made by hand?

4. How many dough balls did you make?

5. Can you describe your pan for us? Specifically, is it a flat pan or disk (perforated or unperforated?) or is it a cutter pan? In either case, is the pan/disk dark anodized or plain aluminum (possibly seasoned with use?)?

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #5 on: April 07, 2013, 11:16:31 AM »
I used KABF. I put room temp water in the KA mixer bowl, then I added the yeast. I sifted the flour then add the salt to it. I did not wait the usual 10 or 15 minutes for the yeast to bloom before I started adding flour to water. I mixed the dough till it just came together, then I added the oil. I ran the KA mixer till the dough looked good, about 10 minutes. The recipe stated this would make one 14" skin. I used the perforated cutter pan I use to make my cracker crust pizzas. It is a dark steel pan. I don't have a peel yet , but I am going to get one before my next attempt. I placed the pan on the stone for 3 minutes, then slid the pie out of the pan and onto the stone for the rest of the bake, about another 6 minutes. The stone was on the middle rack, and the oven temp was 550.
 I did not get much of an oven spring as you can see in the pics. The yeast is pretty fresh, I used the same batch last week to make some hamburger buns. The crust had a good flavor, and it was crispy. It was not tough to bite or chew. I'm thinking I should have let the yeast proof longer. I've seen recipes in the forum where they don't even proof the yeast and use cold water when mixing the dough.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 04:14:02 PM by nick57 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #6 on: April 08, 2013, 11:51:33 AM »
Nick,

I will start by saying that the King Arthur Bread flour (KABF) should work in the recipe you used. It has a protein content of 12.7%. The Superlative flour mentioned in the original recipe you used has a protein content of 12.6%. That flour is a bleached flour that comes in a bromated form (see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/superlative-flour-25-lb/56574000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category and in a form that uses ascorbic acid, or Vitamin C (see http://www.professionalbakingsolutions.com/product/superlative-flour-bleached-enriched-malted-32-lb/53542000?mct=Flour&ct=pizza&typ=Category). The latter flour is primarily for California. Many will argue that the better choice is the bromated version, which is what most NY style pizza operators use.

With respect to the ADY, you should have used 0.50% instead of 0.375%, or a bit less than 1/3 teaspoon ADY. Also, you should have rehydrated the ADY in a small portion of the formula water (about 5 times the weight of the ADY) at a temperature of around 105 degrees F, for about 10 minutes. The rest of the formula water should have been at a temperature to achieve a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F. Normally, that means water on the cool side. I suspect that some of the problems you experienced with fermentation and oven spring were because you did not follow the recommended practices for rehydrating the ADY. The way you used the ADY, and in the amount you used, most likely materially slowed down the rate of fermentation and the volume expansion of your dough. Had you waited another day or two, the ADY should have caught up to where you hoped or wanted it to be.

Turning now to the matter of the perforated cutter pan you used, I can only say that I have never achieved particularly satisfactory results using a perforated cutter pan, or perforated disk, even dark anodized versions, to make a NY style pizza in my home oven. Perforated disks in particular are creatures that were designed for use in conveyor ovens. For example, Papa John's and Costco both use perforated disks. One of the problems using perforated disks or cutter pans in a standard home oven (mine is a basic electric oven) to make a NY style pizza is that it takes a fair amount of time for the disk or pan to reach the temperature to start to bake the pizza. As a result, you can end up with a reduced oven spring. With a preheated pizza stone, the pizza experiences oven spring as soon as the dough hits the stone.

I think if you correct the yeast usage and use only your pizza stone, you should get improved results. You can also use IDY instead of ADY. IDY can simply be mixed in with the flour. If it turns out that you don't get adequate crust coloration, you can later try adding about 1-2% sugar. If you still experience reduced oven spring, then you can try increasing the formula hydration in a future effort. As I noted in the threads I referenced in my last post, I believe that the formula hydration was kept low in the recipe you used to create a dough that handles beautifully, as one would want in a NAPICs setting. But the better pizza overall might be one with a higher hydration.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #7 on: April 08, 2013, 01:46:06 PM »
Wow! Thanks for all the great info and your time replying. You confirmed all of my suspicions of why I had a failure. I usually always proof my yeast, but I had seen several recipes that don't do it. If I use ADY again for this I will follow your recommendations for proofing. I am getting a peel asap. When I slipped the pie out of the pan and onto the stone I could see immediate results, the skin started bubbling. I'm going to make another pie soon using all your tips and increasing the hydration. I'll post my results on the thread. Thanks again for all your help! Nick

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #8 on: April 13, 2013, 08:00:55 PM »
Well. I took the plunge and bought a peel. It's a 14" wood. I got it for $16.00. Everywhere else I checked wanted at least twice as much. My dough ball has been in the fridge for 48 hours and I will use it tomorrow or around 72 hours. I took Pete-zzz advice and used all his tips this time. I can really tell a difference, the ball has increased in size quite a bit.
  So, after seeing videos and reading stories about peel and stove nuclear meltdowns I was a fearing. I decided to make a quick and dirty pizza to try my hand at using the peel. I used a recipe a friend likes. It was Emeril's NY York pizza recipe. I would not call it a pizza recipe, it is the same recipe I use to make bread, and it seems to be a very popular one used by other chefs. It uses 3 cups of AP flour (I used KAFB), 1 cup of water, 2/1/2 teaspoons of yeast or one packet. I made the dough and let it rise at room temp for 2 hours. Then I balled it up and lest it rest on the counter for an hour while the stove was at a temp of 550. Emeril says to cook the pie at 425, I did the 550.
 I took the ball and worked it out to 14 inches, which was easier than I thought it would be. I dusted the peel with flour, then right before I placed the skin on it, I added a little semolina flour to the peel. I laid the skin on the peel and shook it to make sure it was loose. After I added each topping, I shook the peel to make sure the pie was loose. I shook the skin right before going into the oven. I placed the peel at the back of the stone and shook it till the skin started to come off the edge. I then placed the edge of the pie on the stone and shook the peel and with a slight angle slid the pie gently onto the stone.
 The pie cooked for six minutes. I was really surprised at how well the crust turned out. I was light and crispy on the outside and a little chewy on the inside. Best quickie pie I ever made, a little over 3 hours and you get some pretty tasty pizza. I can't wait for the real NY crust tomorrow. I don't think I will be afraid of using the peel. I just took my time and it paid off. I will report tomorrow on the NY pizza tomorrow. I might have a little problem because this was only a sauce and cheese pizza. Tomorrow I'll add some meat and mushrooms.

I was wondering what you guys thought about  using a screen on a stone for NY Style. I can get a 16" for 6 bucks here.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 08:04:30 PM by nick57 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #9 on: April 14, 2013, 09:14:52 AM »
I was wondering what you guys thought about  using a screen on a stone for NY Style. I can get a 16" for 6 bucks here.

Nick,

A pizza screen is not as good as using your pizza stone. However, if your stone cannot handle a pizza that is 16" in diameter, you will have to use a screen or its equivalent. In this vein, you might take a look at Reply 45 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg20965.html#msg20965. Since the thread in which the foregoing post appears evolved to help members new to the NY style, you might find other helpful tips and ideas in that thread. Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2223.msg19563.html#msg19563 would be a convenient starting point.

Peter


Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2013, 08:25:30 PM »
I was amazed how nice this pie turned out. After 72 hours in the fridge I let the dough rest on the counter for 2 hours. I shaped the skin, not quite round, but it has character. I used the peel again sans the semolina this time, I just used plain flour. I had no problem sliding it onto the stone. It took 6 minutes to cook. The crust was light, crispy on the outside and chewy inside. The skin had a nice flavor.
 I think my main mistake was making the cornicione  too big. It really expanded, I tried poking it with a fork. I'll know better next time The oven spring was almost immediate. For my first NY style success, I'm pretty happy. I know what I need to do next to get better results. I did raise the hydration to 60% this time. I'll try a little more next time. I don't think I will try a screen, I enjoyed using a peel and it really helps to have the skin in direct contact with the stone. When I get better at this style of pie I'll post pics, of course that may take a while.
Thanks Pete-zza and to all of my friends for their great help and input. I'm in pizza nirvana.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2013, 08:43:59 PM by nick57 »

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2013, 08:44:02 PM »
Nick,

You did well with your latest NY style pizza. It won't be long until you have mastered this style too, as you did with the cracker style.

Peter

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2013, 08:51:15 PM »
Thanks so much Pete. This is one of the nicest forums I have ever belonged to. Everyone is nice and so helpful. I have always been a pizza fanatic, but it is really hard to find great pizza joints here. Now I can have great pizza when I want, and I know that I am using quality ingredients. Without everyones help I would still be eating badly made commercial pies, and paying too much for them. Thanks again! Nick

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #13 on: April 21, 2013, 06:49:02 PM »
Friday I made some dough for a pie on Saturday. I used Pete's NY style recipe, but I went off the reservation and did a autolyse and used 1/2 teaspoon of ADY. The finished temp of the ball was 78 degrees when it went to the fridge. The dough went nuclear and then had a meltdown. I knew I was in trouble by how much the ball had expanded that evening. The next day it had degassed. I decided to bake it anyway just for my info. It turned out just as I thought, dense hard and chewy. Lesson learned. Don't stray too much till I get better at making pies.

 Thinking ahead I made another ball. I used Pete's recipe to make it. I followed it except I used 1/2 teaspoon of IDY yeast. The finished ball temp was 82 degrees when it went into the fridge. I left the top off the container for a couple of hours to help get the dough temp down. After 24 hours in the fridge I did a 2 hour warm up on the counter. The dough was easy to work with. I made a 14 inch pie.

The pie cooked for 8 minutes. The crust was great, crispy on the outside and light and chewy on the inside. The cornicione was crispy on the outside and it had a light and chewy texture. I had two problems. When I slid the skin off the peel the back edge of the pie touched the back of the oven, I had to wait two minutes before I could move the skin around. The other problem is an easy fix. I won't make mini sausage balls for the pizza. When I slid the peel, the sausage wanted to roll off the pie. Ha! I should have known better. Anyway, it was my best pie to date. For my next one, I will go back to 1/4 teaspoon of IDY, and a 72 hour rise. This pie was a little thicker then the last pies, I may just scale back on my weights a little for the dough.  Thanks again to Pete! This was a wonderful pie, and as I get more practice, they should even get better
« Last Edit: April 21, 2013, 11:19:10 PM by nick57 »

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2013, 06:51:25 PM »
Today I made a 4 cheese hamburger pizza. I used the same recipe as the last except for three differences. I added a teaspoon of VWG, and cut back on the yeast to 1/4 teaspoon, and did a 48 hour rest in the fridge. The skin stretched out to 14" easily. I upped the hydration to 61%, and it made it a little more tricky to get the skin off the peel. The crust was crispy on the outside and very light and chewy on the inside. The crust had a nice flavor. I did not brush the cornicione with olive oil this time, and it stayed soft and not crispy on the outside. I did work the edge to get a smaller cornicione this time, the last pies corniciones were just way too big. All in all, It was my best pie to date. I was even able to fold the slice like a NY style street pizza. I think next time I will add oil to the cornicione to make it a little more crispy. Any thoughts on brushing oil on it, is it kind of a no no, or is OK.

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #15 on: May 03, 2013, 08:52:49 PM »
This was a good pie, crispy, and a light and chewy crust. The cornicione was crispy and had lite bite. Is this way NY style is? I like the texture and the lightness of the chew. But, is this way NY pies are, or is the cornicione dense and chewy? Not that I loved this pie, but I like the idea that if I want, I can come pretty close to a NY slice.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #16 on: May 03, 2013, 08:56:24 PM »
Nope , that's not NY pie.
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Offline jsperk

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #17 on: May 03, 2013, 09:02:39 PM »
That cheeseburger one looks real tasty. Nice work on the pies.

Offline nick57

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #18 on: May 03, 2013, 09:07:00 PM »
So, where did I go wrong? I used Pete's NY dough. Is it the toppings? I think the skin was a little too thick. The crust had a nice flavor, it was a 48 hour rise in the fridge. I used a 60% hydration for the dough.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: My first NY style
« Reply #19 on: May 03, 2013, 09:10:55 PM »
Do you have a favorite slice joint you go to and do you have a pic of their NY pie?
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