Author Topic: Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten  (Read 555 times)

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Offline jeff v

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Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten
« on: April 06, 2013, 11:31:40 PM »
I'm hoping to continue a discussion from another thread beginning with this-
For me as a home pizza maker, it really comes down to texture.  What texture suits you most. I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.  I am not talking about chewy or bready sourdough type breads.  This type of crust is exceedingly difficult to get right with either styles and anything inbetween.   If you can make a really great pizza dough, it will bake up really well whether at 600F or 900F.  It just bakes faster at 900F and the toppings remain more fresh or raw.  But having an oven that can produce an even bake at 900F does not guarantee good NP pizza either.  And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps. 

And btw, one of the very best crust I have ever made (possibly the best) and have yet to fully and consistently duplicate was bake in the home oven at around 600F.  Not my WFO, and not my LBE/MBE.  Yes I have pulled out plenty of great pies from various ovens at various temps.   The BEST breads and pizzas are not about temperature solely but rather about gluten balance, fermentation balance, and balanced with the right baking temperature for that dough.  That's it! simple as that!

Anyways, sorry to get off topic.  Williard PM sent.

Chau


Offline scott123

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Re: Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2013, 01:01:11 AM »
And yes, NP while a more challenging pie to make, fast bakes do hide a myriad of mistakes in the dough.  This is why folks are always saying that caputo can't be used at lower temps b/c it makes for a tough crust.   This is b/c their dough is wrong.  The gluten is overdeveloped.   A great dough will get slightly tougher as it cools (how can it not) but it will by and large remain soft 30 minutes post bake.  Flour is flour.  If you make a great caputo dough, it will bake up just fine at lower temps as well as higher temps.


Chau, my issues regarding Caputo and longer bakes have nothing to do with gluten under/overdevelopment or doughmaking skills.  They relate to enzyme activity.  Here's what we know:

1. The diastatic malt added to most American flour is enzyme enrichment.
2. Enzymes break down starch into sugar and protein into amino acids.
3. Protein degradation produces tenderness.
3. Without enzyme enrichment, you have less protein degradation, less tenderness.

Now, you can argue the extent of #3 and #4/how much additional protein atrophy is occurring with enzyme enrichment and how much tenderness is achieved, and theorize that it might be inconsequential, but the evidence that I've seen, for the most part, seems to contradict that.

Traditional Neapolitan doughs baked for 3-6 minutes have an incredibly high propensity for both insufficient browning and a tough, stale quality. NY style doughs made with unmalted flour and baked in that same time frame have the identical tendency:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22942.0.html

Can you work around this? Probably.  Even without enzyme enrichment, there's naturally occurring enzymes in flour.  These enzymes, if given enough time, will eventually break down the gluten. An extra few days of fermentation should be able to mirror the protein atrophying effects of diastatic malt. Oil also has a tenderizing effect. But why go through the trouble of having to work around application related defects (as well as paying considerably more for Caputo) when cheaper, workaround-free tools already exist?

Ask yourself this question- why did American millers start adding malted barley to their flours?  It wasn't on a whim- and it's not just because Americans craved bread with a golden brown appearance, obtained, in part, from the extra sugar obtained from enzyme activity.  It's because enzymes bring other advantages to the table- such as protein atrophy. For non Neapolitan bake times, when you don't have the explosive oven spring from the intense flash of heat and when the lack of protein atrophy becomes much more discernible, enzymes are king/malted flours are superior.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 01:10:15 AM by scott123 »

Offline Essen1

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Re: Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2013, 01:29:02 AM »
Quote
I like a slightly to crispy shell on the rim with a very soft and sometimes melt in your mouth cloudy crumb with very little chew.  I've always described this as like a really great baguette.  So yes, for me good pizza and bread can be one in the same.  For those who haven't had a great baguette, you wouldn't understand or agree.

Chau,

I'm going out on a limp here and be PC-incorrect...but Safeway, with their new line of "European Artisan" baguettes is exactly what you described.

You might want to hawk some of the bakery staffers and seduce them into revealing the recipe. Work your good looks, buddy!  ;D

My best guess is they're shipped frozen and that those employees just have to pop 'em in the oven and that's it.

Either way, I've tried their bread and it's somewhat flavorful but very light.
Mike

"Anyone who has never made a mistake has never tried anything new."  - Albert Einstein

http://thehobbycook.blogspot.com/

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2013, 08:10:38 AM »
My post was in response to Scot R and Williards comments from this thread...

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22175.msg245533.html#msg245533

Scott I can't argue science with you.  You'd win everytime.   ;D  And you might disagree but you can get around the tenderness issue by upping the hydration level.   But generally speaking, I do agree that it's best to use the right tool for the right job.  And I will concede that Caputo is likely better for NP style pizzas rather than NY style pies and vice versa, American malted flours better for NY style.  All I am saying is that caputo can do a fine job making NY style pies.  I have zero tenderness or browning issues using caputo for a 4 minute NY style pie in the WFO using a 6 hour dough.  I even shot a youtube video showing it, I think you remember. 

But I'm not using a traditional NP dough.  I'm using moderately high hydration dough.  But I agree a traditional or typical NP dough of around 60% hydration would give you a tough crust if you baked it 3-4 minutes.  But caputo doesn't necessarily make for a tough, stale, under colored crust as was once believed. 

 
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:19:27 AM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Is flour flour? Texture temp and gluten
« Reply #4 on: April 07, 2013, 08:16:06 AM »
Mike there is no longer a Safeway local to me anymore.  They've all been replaced with other grocery stores.   But the closest example I can find that most members have access to are the baguettes from Sam's club.  They look more like Hoagie rolls.   They are really light and fluffy.   When toasted, you get a really nice thin crunchy shell with a pillowy soft interior. 

And yes, I tried to charm the gals behind the counter for some info and yes they aren't made in house.  They are shipped to the bakery frozen and then baked locally.  That amounts to dough made with commercial equipment, made in bulk, and with loads of dough enhancers.  I'm not sure that this type of bread or pizza crust can be easily reproduced in the home environment.  :-\

I happen to have a few of their wheat loaves on hand.  Here are a few cell phone pics.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2013, 08:22:20 AM by Jackie Tran »