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Offline Saul

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bubbles in the dough
« on: January 19, 2006, 05:32:43 PM »
Hi, I'm new here, some great topics...

A problem I've been having recently is getting large air bubbles trapped in the dough which makes it difficult to open out. Is it over/under proofed?? The dough is proofed in the fridge overnight, the recipe is, (I think the percentages are right)

100%   14.4Kg OO Flour
50%     7.2Kg (8 litre)water
2.75%  400g Oil
2.75%  400g Salt
0.4%    56g Fresh Yeast

Thanks for any help... :D



Online Pete-zza

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2006, 06:51:12 PM »
Saul,

It's difficult to say without having more information. Your baker's percents look about right except if you are using 8 liters of water instead of 7.2 Kg., your hydration would be closer to 56% rather than 50% since 1 gram of water equals 1 milliliter. The 56% number is in the usual range for 00 flour.

Since you said the problem occurred recently, I am assuming that your formulation is OK and that you haven't changed it or the way you make your dough. The typical sequencing of your ingredients would be water, salt (dissolved in the water), yeast, flour and oil.

If my assumptions are correct, I would guess that the problem is underfermentation. If you live where it is cold at the moment, your kitchen might be cooler than normal and your cooler may be running colder also. Or if the water you used to make the dough was too cold, the dough may not have fermented enough even with an overnight stay in the cooler. I'm assuming that your cooler is not malfunctioning and running on the cold side and that you didn't put your dough balls in a colder part of the cooler, either of which could slow down the rate of fermentation. You might want to check the finished dough temperature at some point to see if is lower than normal. If it is much below say, 80 degrees F, you may want to use warmer water. If I guessed wrong and all your temperatures are running on the high side, then there is the possibility that overfermentation, or possibly too much yeast in such a scenario, may be the cause of the bubbling.

Feel free to follow up with additional information once you have had a chance to review the above.

Peter


Offline chiguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2006, 07:29:28 PM »
 Hi Peter and Saul,
 The dough problem you are experiencing sounds very much like peter has explained. You may want to check the yeast you are using. Is it a new package?Is it an old package? It is very possible the yeast you used is bad. Has this been a reoccuring problem? The reason i have do not suspect over fermentation is that you are using a fairly small amount of yeast. Goodluck, Chiguy
« Last Edit: January 19, 2006, 07:34:39 PM by chiguy »

Offline Saul

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2006, 11:09:39 AM »
The sequence we mix the dough is water, yeast, flour, salt, oil. We were told that the salt kills the yeast so it's best to get the dough formed before adding the salt..

I thought at first it was bad yeast but the other guys haven't been having any problems and I've also had the problem with a fresh block too. Could it be a case of over/undermixing the dough?? I've tried varying the water temperature and varying the amount of time before I put the balls in the fridge... It's a real pain because when the dough is nice, my day at work is pretty enjoyable but when it's not right there's like a domino effect and EVERYTHING seems to go wrong!!!

Also, after the dough comes out of the mixer we let it rest 10-15 minutes, but it takes about an hour to get the dough balled up, would this have a negative effect ??

Thanks for the replies..
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 11:12:53 AM by Saul »

Offline chiguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2006, 11:38:28 AM »
 hi Saul,
 It appears to me you should adjust the ingrediant sequencing. I have been told by Tom Leahmann as well as other probakers the salt should go in with the water. Pete-zza and myself had this diccussion the other day about salt and yeast activity. Heres the link http://Http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2411.0.html   Reply's#12-19.
 I assume that the problem you are experiencing is directly related to the ingrediant sequence. The salt that is added last may not break down well during mixing. The salt adds strength to the dough and this sounds like what you may be experiencing, too tough of dough,flat difficult to stretch? Try the ingrediant sequencing that Pete-zza has mentioned above.    Chiguy

Online Pete-zza

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2006, 01:08:32 PM »
Saul, 

I don't think that the bubbling in the dough is due to overkneading or underkneading. It might be the sequencing of ingredients as chiguy suggests but if the doughs have worked properly with your sequencing with any regularity it may not be the fault of the salt in the sequence. Are the "other guys" using the same formulation and processing methods?  Has the problem been constant recently (which is why I asked questions before on the temperatures aspects), or sporadic and unpredictable? Any one of these can mean that there is something wrong with your dough management.

The sequencing of ingredients I mentioned is essentially the one that has been used for Neapolitan doughs for a long time. They don't refrigerate doughs in Naples, but I don't see why refrigeration cannot be used. It's done quite frequently in the U.S. with Neapolitan-style doughs. It will alter the timing of events but if all the timing factors are properly worked out as part of a proper dough management methodology, you should get good results.

Can you tell me what kind of mixer you are using, what kind of 00 flour (brand) you are using, and how long a knead time and what speeds you have been making your dough? Have you actually calculated the water temperature you will need to achieve a desired finished dough temperature, and have you measured that finished dough temperature? When the dough balls are brought out to room temperature to use, how long do you let the dough balls sit before using them? Answers to these questions might shed some light on the problem. Any other information that you can add will also be helpful.

Peter


Offline elsegundo

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2006, 03:53:35 PM »
I don't know what "open out"means.

We come from different worlds which might help. I want the bubbles, if you mean large voids. I achieve that by rolling out the dough and then refrigerating before baking. I am looking for a cracker crust. You are not.  So how long do you let the dough warm up before "dressing" it? I mean putting on the sauce and toppings. I keep mine very cold to get those bubbles. What I will never do is let the dough get to room temperature. I want cracker pizza not bread. No offense.

Putting yeast with salt.  Let's get serious! No.
Tom Lehman says a lot of things, some of them helpful.

You need to be a little more specific as to how you handle the dough. If at any point you fold the dough over, you will get bubbles. I want it; you don't. You are so close to your goal. Keep on keeping on.







Online Pete-zza

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2006, 04:00:57 PM »
Saul can correct me on this, but I believe "open out" (or "open up") is a term of art that means stretching the dough out from a dough round to its final desired size. Since Saul is using 00 flour and a Neapolitan-style dough, I assume the stretching of the dough takes place entirely on the bench and the dough is not tossed. Almost all doughs will exhibit some bubbling but apparently his are more than normal small bubbles.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 20, 2006, 04:03:55 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline Saul

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #8 on: January 23, 2006, 01:12:44 PM »
Maybe it is the sequencing of the ingredients, I usually wait until the dough is well gathered together before adding the salt, I might try adding it just after the flour. I'm based in the UK so I don't know how common the flour is in the US, I thinks it's called OO 5 Stagioni... 

The mixer only has one speed setting, we'd mix it in total for about 20 minutes. Flour, water and yeast for 5-10 mins then add salt, mix for 5 mins the add the oil and mix for another 5 minutes or so. Any time I've checked the dough temp when it's being balled, it's usually around 75F. Bit too cold maybe?? Also I don't think the yeast ever completely dissolves in the water, there's always little specks floating around, does this matter?

There's no definitive answer as to whether salt and yeast can be combined is there?? I think I'll stick to not mixing the two, we're so busy at work I don't have time for too many experiments, maybe I'll try it at home.

I'm pretty new to pizza making so I really appreciate all your help ;D

Online Pete-zza

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #9 on: January 23, 2006, 02:53:30 PM »
Saul,

I don't ever recall seeing the Stagioni flours in the U.S., but I am aware that there are several 5 Stagioni 00 flours. Do you know which one you are using, that is, Oro, Superiore or Rinforzato?

There is a spirited debate on the forum about the salt/yeast issue. However, one of our members, pizzanapoletana, who comes from the Naples area (he now lives in the UK), has had a great deal of experience in making Neapolitan doughs and insists that it is fine to combine salt with the yeast in the water provided the salt is completely dissolved in the water before adding the yeast (preferment or commercial yeast). I have excerpted the following from one of pizzanapoletana's posts in which he discussed the salt/water issue:

I keep hearing that salt and yeast cannot be combined in the water before adding the flour.

Before saying that, people should consider what actually the salt does to the yeast.

Basically, salt excerpt [exerts?] what is called osmotic pressure, which means that attract the water present in the environment around it. Sugar has a similar effect, even if at a lesser extent.

At the same time, the osmotic pressure, slows down the action of yeast in a dough.

We should also consider that different salt types, have different hydroscopic properties (the capacity of be dissolved in water), with the sea salt being the best.

Now, if you dissolve the salt in the water, and then into this "brine", dissolve the yeast (like Neapolitan have been doing for ages) the Osmotic pressure will be the same as if you add the two separate, as well as the salt will be already dissolved and have absorbed enough water, which will have reduced its osmotic pressure.

The only other thing to consider, would be the effect of salt on the formation of gluten, but this is another story
.

Can you tell me what kind or brand of yeast you are using? I assume that you are using what we in the U.S. call either "active dry yeast" or "instant dry yeast", both of which are dry forms of yeast. The active dry yeast has to be proofed (activated) in warm water before using. The instant dry yeast can be added directly to the flour. I mention the yeast in light of your comments about seeing specks in the water. It's possible that the form of yeast you are using may not have been properly handled.

I do think that you may want to take a careful look at the sequencing of the ingredients, along the lines mentioned earlier. BTW, the 75 degree dough temperature may be a bit on the cool side but if the dough is permitted to warm up enough before using, it should handle properly. How long do you allow the dough to warm up when it comes out of the cooler?

Peter


Offline Saul

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #10 on: January 23, 2006, 04:09:13 PM »
I think the flour's just called Standard Blue label, Oro maybe??

The salt/yeast explanation seems very interesting, I'll definitely try it at home..

We use fresh block yeast, I'd prefer to use some form of dried as I think it would be more consistent, I find judging when the fresh yeast is past it's best difficult - whether it's crumbly or not..

The time the dough rests once it's out of the cooler varies on how busy we are. We generally take about 12 balls at a time and use, say, the first one straight away and the last one in the tray could be used within 10 minutes or maybe as a long as an hour. The problem with the 'bubbly' dough is when it's come straight out of the cooler it's not too bad, a bit too elastic maybe but the longer it rests, the more air bubbles it develops until it's nearly impossible to open it to both the right size or without ripping it. We 'open' the dough like you said on the bench, maybe a flip here and there :-D

When the dough is 'bubbly' it seems to require a lot more bench flour too.

The reason we keep the dough temp low is because if it rises too quickly the balls spread and stick to each other in the tray and you can't really use them after 1 day. Is there another way around this??

Cheers again...

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #11 on: January 23, 2006, 04:51:40 PM »
Saul,

The reason I asked you the type of flour you are using is to determine what the typical fermentation time is based on the specifications for the flour. Judging from this link, http://www.molinoagugiaro.it/Molino%20Agugiaro%20-%20Prodotti%20-%205stagioni%20eng.htm, it looks like the Oro may be the flour you are using based on the rated leavening time and W number.

As you may have learned, there is a rather delicate balance between the amount of yeast used, dough temperature (which is affected by room, flour, water and machine friction temperatures), and time (which is also related to the flour used). I think it is a good idea to experiment with the sequencing issues we discussed before because it is very important to produce a uniform, consistently good, high-quality dough. But you may also have a dough management problem beyond the dough processing. If some dough balls are opening up well while others aren't, you may have to change the way you use, and possibly make, the dough balls. One way that comes to mind to keep the dough balls from rising too much and running into each other in the dough trays is to use less yeast. Alternatively, you could use cooler water. Or you could do some of each at the same time. The dough balls won't rise as much, but it may take longer to get them to warm up enough before using. You might even find that the dough balls will hold out a bit longer before they become subject to the bubbling problem you have been experiencing.

Please keep us informed of your progress with the dough bubbling problem and your experiments at home.

Peter


Offline pizzanapoletana

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2006, 04:42:36 PM »
Thanks for the citation..

Just few additional information about myself:

I am from Naples (the city). When people refer to Naples area, they usually mean anywhere in Campania region.....  ;D

also, more then simple "great deal of experience", I would say "professional experience" in a commercial situations in pizza napoletana, as well as Pizza in teglia (focaccia), Romana, Siciliana, Ligure and rustic bread baking; and have a great knowledge of Bread & Pizzamaking science and technology as well as Starters and Microflora in dough making

 :P

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #13 on: January 25, 2006, 01:23:26 PM »
Saul,

I saw these items today from PMQ.com's Think Tank that I thought might interest you:

http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/26520, and http://www.pmq.com/cgi-bin/tt/index.cgi/noframes/read/26530.

The items are not with respect to 00 doughs, but the principles should still be the same. You might note also the amount of yeast recommended by Tom Lehmann in the above items.

Peter
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 02:41:44 PM by Pete-zza »

Offline pieguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #14 on: January 25, 2006, 01:34:43 PM »
I dealt with the exact same problem that you describe when I started out making pizzas. The problem is not yeast, salt, flour, etc. It is simply a problem of fermentation. When you mix your dough you are providing the yeast (regardless of what type) with food. The rate at which the yeast can consume the food is in large part determined by temperature, and as you know, the byproduct of this process is gas.

By balling your dough so soon after mixing and then refrigerating immediately, you are effectively interrupting the fermentation process, all the more so because the balls of dough cool down faster than a large mass. Then, when the balls are pulled out for use and they begin to warm up, the interrupted fermentation is re-awakened. The still-hungry yeast starts eating and producing gas, leaving large pockets of air in your pizza balls which are very difficult to work around.

The solution is to allow your dough to proof completely before portioning. That means waiting until the really vigorous stage of fermentation has passed, punching down and folding the dough a few times to help it develop, and proceeding with the portioning only when the dough seems "quiet" and relaxed. Skipping this step only invites the active fermentation to occur in your pizza balls and as you know, that's a unpleasant experience.

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #15 on: January 25, 2006, 01:54:49 PM »
pieguy,

I have occasionally experienced a small amount of bubbling in cold fermented doughs (mainly NY style) that go into the refrigerator immediately (by design) after being prepared. In your suggested approach, would the dough after portioning go into the cooler for cold retardation? And, if the dough remains in the cooler overnight, or longer, will it tolerate the long fermentation time, especially after it has proofed/fermented for some while? I would think that the usual factors of 00 flour type, amount of yeast, and temperature would still be major factors and have to be carefully controlled.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #16 on: January 25, 2006, 02:37:43 PM »
 Hello Pieguy,Pete-zza & Saul,
 There is absolutley no problem with using cold fermentation with this dough or any other dough. The retarded dough process is the most widley used in the pizza business. It is common to divide the dough  and refridgerate right after mixing, it is a important part of the fermentation control. With the proper balanced ingrediant's, temperature and sequencing, nobody should have a problem using the retarded dough process for fermentation.

 I have been looking over my notes and have come to the conclusion that the sequencing is still the problem. You are probably experiencing  over fermentation due to the the lack of salt incorporated into the dough. When you add the salt last( after a dough ball has been formed) you are probably experiencing spots of the dough with no salt added at all, thus spotty bubbles. It is difficult for the coarse salt to break down and be distributed evenly at this point in the mixing stage. The salt is a important part of fermentation control, especially when the yeast has been active for 24 hours inside or outside the refridgerator. Saul, the formula you are using is in line with a retarded dough process  and only the sequncing needs adjusting    Goodluck Chiguy 

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #17 on: January 25, 2006, 03:03:55 PM »
chiguy,

I hear you but, with all due respect, is is common--even required--that the salt be added last in doughs that are made using the autolyse process (the classic Calvel autolyse). It is also done with artisan sourdough breads. I have done it many times without incident. I realize that bread dough isn't exactly the same as pizza dough, but the salt will dissolve in the dough even if added late in the process. I have even done it by hand. The dough will initially develop tears and a rough texture (it's actually quite interesting to watch), but with continued kneading the dough becomes smooth and elastic again, and the dough looks like any other dough.

I still lean toward underfermentation rather than overfermentation as the likely problem. In light of the PMQ items noted above, I also wonder whether Saul's formulation uses enough yeast (fresh yeast). Using more yeast could forestall the underfermentation problem, if that is in fact the problem. I also respect the fact that pieguy has had substantial experience, maybe even professional experience, with making and using cold fermented 00 doughs. So, I am not prepared to dismiss out of hand his diagnosis and his proposed solution.

Peter

Offline chiguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #18 on: January 25, 2006, 07:39:35 PM »
 Hi Peter,
 Although the PMQ link is correct and gives great advice, i did not feel it applied in Sauls case. It would help to let the dough warm a bit, but the bubbles in dough balls should not be there at all. I understood that his bubbling problem is with the raw fermented dough and not during baking. I have taken this to be caused from over fermentation, even though i first thought otherwise. I also noticed that his mixer had one speed, what that speed is who knows? There are several different ways to use the autolyse. I do not add salt last, without incident in all my doughs. I would assume at over 70% hydration for breads you could mix thumb tacks in the dough and they would dissolve. I do not think the theory i purposed is out of the question. On the other hand you may be correct as well, especially with the compressed yeast being on the low end. But what is with the bubbles in the retarded cold dough? There is also several unknown equations in Sauls process? With all due respect to saul, it is possible he was not attentive when he was scaling ingrediants. This is always a possiblility, i was taught always to scale ingrediants without interuptions. This problem could always lead to inconsistencies in the dough(too low yeast%). He may also want to check the temperature of his cooler. It may be running warm(overfermented) or a bit to cold(underfermented). I believe ultimately Saul will be the one with the correct answer to his question.

 Although i have alot of respect for professional pizza operators, i tend to follow the procedures that i have been taught by the professionals in the pizza industry. I have met more bad pizza operators than bad teachers. This is not to imply pieguy is wrong in any way or falls into this category.

 I also would like to comment that the process pieguy is using will work as well, it is called bulk fresh dough.         Chiguy
« Last Edit: January 25, 2006, 08:01:49 PM by chiguy »

Offline pieguy

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Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #19 on: January 26, 2006, 01:17:11 AM »
1. 20 minutes seems like a really long time to mix, but then I have a crappy ol' Hobart that overheats and overworks the dough if I go much beyond 12 minutes. I have no idea if the mix time contributes to the problem.

2. I agree with chiguy for the matter of the salt. Other sophisticated dough mixing techniques notwithstanding, there is no significant reason not to add the salt at the beginning of the mix or even into the water, when mixing commercial pizza dough. I do it every day without complications. If a technique ensures more consistent results, it should be used.

3. The amount of yeast in the recipe does seem low compared to my recipe. For that amount of flour, and estimating for the difference between fresh/dry yeast, I would expect Saul to use around 80-100 grams of fresh yeast. The recipe is generous in salt, so perhaps the high salt and low yeast contribute to underfermentation.

4. There's also an error in the recipe with respect to water, but it may not be significant as far as the bubbles are concerned. For the purposes of baking and pastries, 1 liter of water is equal to 1 kilogram, unless there's a British liter with which I'm not familiar. The recipe reads "7.2 Kg (8 liters)", so it's hard to tell which amount is the intended one.

5. Despite the numerous other excellent solutions offered, I stand by the assertion that if you allow the dough to proof properly (whether 100% @ room temperature, or cold fermented over one or two nights, or a combination of both) before portioning, your dough balls will present much less bubble activity when they come back to room temperature.