Author Topic: bubbles in the dough  (Read 6724 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21676
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #20 on: January 26, 2006, 07:45:15 AM »
To be clear, I was not advocating that the salt be added last, or later in the process. I was only trying to make the point that salt can be made to dissolve in a dough when added later. For Saul's situation, I would do as pizzanapoletana recommends, as discussed at length earlier in this thread. I would also advocate reviewing the sequencing of ingredients, also as previously discussed, and for the reasons previously discussed.

It is possible that if the amount of yeast currently being used is on the low side, the relatively large amount of salt may be impeding the fermentation of the dough, as pieguy postulates. Salt does indeed act as a regulator of the fermentation process and it is quite common in Naples to use it as such--by increasing it (to slow down fermentation) or decreasing it (to speed up fermentation) as the situation demands. I might add, however, that 2.75% salt for a Neapolitan dough is well within the range usually used. It might be too much in relation to the yeast, but it, per se, is not out of line. I have seen over 3%.

A knead time of 20 minutes would not be out of order for a 00 dough that uses 00 flour on the low end of the protein/gluten spectrum. The mixers in Italy are different from what are used in the U.S., and possibly in the UK, but low protein/gluten doughs require long times to develop what little gluten is in the dough. This is a point that pizzanapoletana has made on more than one occasion.

The reason I quoted the Lehmann posts was to point out the more common causes for bubbles forming. The reasons for bubbles forming in a crust are essentially the same as why they form in a dough before baking. Tom Lehmann mentioned underfermentation and low yeast as two of the possibilities. With the low dough temperatures that Saul has reported achieving with his dough balls, and especially if the yeast is in fact on the low side, suggests underfermentation to me rather than overfermentation.

I think Saul has now been subjected to much discourse on which to evaluate what he is doing. I like trying to resolve dough mysteries and look forward to his informing us on the progress he makes in unraveling this one.

Peter


Offline chiguy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 560
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #21 on: January 26, 2006, 11:15:10 AM »
 Hi peter & pieguy,
 I made the assumption of the overfermentation based on the info Saul provided about the proofed dough characteristics. The bubbles can also be due to overfermentation. Because the dough was never warmed to room temperature, it was difficult for me to assess that the stretching problem was from underfermentation. I also thought that the coarse salt may have not been fully incorporated in the dough during the later mixing stage. If this was the case, making for inconsistent fermentation. I could be completely incorrect in this assumption. I also feel that attentive ingrediant scaling and the refridgerators temperature should not be overlooked here.
 
 Both of you have made a strong point with respect to the fresh yeast amount being on the low side. This could definetely lead to a underproofed dough, where the bubbles are common as well. I would suggest Saul to still change his ingrediant sequencing along the lines with what pete-zza mentioned earlier in this thread. I hope Saul will post the
solution to his problem when he has the time.   Chiguy

Offline Saul

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #22 on: January 29, 2006, 03:35:31 PM »
Cheers folks, some really interesting responses, thanks!

I've just been back at work after a few days off, so I've only had a couple of opportunities to experiment and so far so good... I thought the easiest change to make in my process would be to add the salt at an earlier stage so I did, about a minute or two after adding the flour to the yeast and water. And it seems to have sorted the problem out but I'll know for definite over the next few days whether or not it was just a fluke, hopefully not...


In terms of scaling, I'm pretty sure the amount of yeast is always correct, maybe the salt +/- 2g and the oil +/- 3g, would that make such a big difference??

The amount of water is 8 litres, not sure why I typed 7.2Kg...

As for the under/over fermentation issue, I tend to think it more likely to be under as I've sometimes had to use dough that hasn't had the full overnight rest and I remember it being quite similar to the current problem. But hopefully adding the salt earlier will be the solution I'm after, it's really good to be using nice dough again!!

Thanks again, I'll know where to come in future  ;D

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21676
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #23 on: January 29, 2006, 04:11:03 PM »
Saul,

The slight changes one way or another to the salt and oil shouldn't change anything noticeably. I still think you should try out the water, salt, yeast, flour, oil sequence sometime, especially if the sequence you are now using doesn't really work out in terms of finally solving your bubble problem. Depending on your results, the option of increasing the amount of yeast a little is still open to you.

I'd be anxious to hear back from you on the results of your latest approach.

Peter

Offline Saul

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2006, 05:39:33 PM »

Are you suggesting first dissolving the salt in the water followed by the yeast then adding the flour and oil??

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21676
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #25 on: January 29, 2006, 06:23:54 PM »
Saul,

Yes.

Peter

Offline chiguy

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 560
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #26 on: January 29, 2006, 08:40:25 PM »
 Hi Saul,
 I am glad to hear you have found the solution to the problem. Although I personally use the ingrediant sequence Peter has suggested. I know plenty of pizza places that add the salt in with the flour, or even right on top of the flour. If you are comfortable with this and it has helped with the dough handeling properties, then i would suggest you continue to use this method.    Chiguy

Offline David

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 966
  • What’s So Funny ‘Bout Pizza Love and Understanding
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #27 on: January 29, 2006, 09:38:41 PM »
I personally have made doughs with the salt dissolved in water followed by the yeast and then flour.I have also added the salt at the end(also dissolved in some of the water that I held back) after most of the flour had been added with favorable results.I have only used a wood fired oven to cook my pizzas.Either should work for you  Saul,
                                                                                                 David
If you're looking for a date... go to the Supermarket.If you're looking for a wife....go to the Farmers market

Offline Wazza McG

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 92
  • Age: 51
  • Location: Brisbane, Australia.
  • Aussie Aussie Aussie .... Oi Oi Oi !!
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2006, 06:20:58 PM »
Saul,

I hope your problem has disappeared.  If so, what was the major difference of possibly minimsing the problem?  The advise offered here was intriguing to say at the least, all with good intentions - no doubt.  I keep coming back to this site to read nitty gritty threads like this as you can learn so much from them.   

You had some top shelf advisor's  :chef: comment on your problem.  All the best.

Wazza McG
« Last Edit: February 17, 2006, 06:40:02 PM by Wazza McG »
Fair Dinkum - you want more Pizza!  Crikey ! I've run out out them prawny thingymebobs again!

Offline Saul

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 21
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: bubbles in the dough
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2006, 09:45:51 AM »
Yeah, I suppose I should have cleared that up!

I mix yeast with the water and then add the flour and mix for a couple of minutes, then I add the salt. Beforehand I had been waiting until the dough was well formed (maybe letting it mix for 5-10 minutes) before adding the salt, this solved the problem. I would like to try (as Pete-zza mentioned) mixing salt & water and then the yeast but we're too busy at the minute to try anything that might mess up a batch of dough (I'm not suggesting the method is incorrect just that I mightn't get it right first time) Also I imagine it would take some time to dissolve 400g salt??

Basically, my bubbles problem is solved, thanks again everyone!! I have another question about rising times with regard to salt and yeast but I'll start another thread on that soon...