Author Topic: A Little Experiment  (Read 2366 times)

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Offline Glutenboy

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A Little Experiment
« on: April 12, 2013, 03:10:12 AM »
Just made 2 4-ball batches of GB dough using GM Bread Flour (Harvest King) at 67% hydration.  Only difference - Batch one is the usual no-oil formula while batch two has 1.5% evoo in the mix.  Going to give them equal time in the cooler.  Anyone have any predictions as to what differences I'll notice in the final product?  Did I use enough oil to make a noticeable change? I already felt a difference as I was balling the dough.  The batch with oil was more extensible and a bit harder to handle.  Whatcha think?

- GB  :chef:
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline f.montoya

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #1 on: April 12, 2013, 09:32:08 AM »
How are you planning to bake? What temps and what kind of oven setup?(forgive me. I'm new around here!)

Some initial guesses...

67% should yield a nice moist crust on both, and maybe a longer bake will benefit the olio one, in that some its oil moisture will be retained better and it should brown a bit more. If it's a shorter bake at plus 900f, there might not be much of a visual difference but I recon the olio one will add a nice aroma.  :)

Post pics, please!!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 09:34:45 AM by f.montoya »

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #2 on: April 12, 2013, 11:16:27 AM »
As long as you balled the oil dough just a bit more to get the same feel as the non oil dough, both will open and bake similarly.  The oil dough will be just a bit more slack or extensible.   You will notice a difference in crumb appearance and texture.  The oil dough will produce a more tender crumb texture that will stay softer longer.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #3 on: April 12, 2013, 04:31:33 PM »
As of this afternoon, both patients are resting comfortably in the fridge.  The version with oil is a bit more yeilding to the touch, but otherwise not much difference.  What do you think I can expect browning-wise?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #4 on: April 12, 2013, 04:48:43 PM »
Not much difference in the browning department but I don't recall doing a side by side comparison.   Looking forward to the results with pictures!
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 04:58:13 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline scott123

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #5 on: April 12, 2013, 06:16:01 PM »
Oil promotes more even browning, and, I believe, more of it. 1.5%  isn't a lot of oil, though.  The impact of oil isn't glaringingly obvious until you hit 2 or higher.  A 3% oil pie is very different than an 0% oil pie.

You might want to bake the oil pie after the non-oil, as the oil pie should favor the slightly cooled stone.

Peter includes oil in 'effective hydration.' I don't adjust the water with the oil percentage point for percentage point, but, when I do add oil, I back off the water a bit.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #6 on: April 12, 2013, 06:23:16 PM »
Quote
Peter includes oil in 'effective hydration.' I don't adjust the water with the oil percentage point for percentage point, but, when I do add oil, I back off the water a bit.
That occured to me, Scott, but I decided to ignore it in the interest of making the oil the only wildcard.  Given the relative slackness of the oil version, I would adjust a bit in the future.  I thought about going higher with the oil percentage, but since I rarely use any (and haven't in many years), I thought I'd start with a conservative experiment.  Looking forward to the results.  Also, since I've got you on the line, do you think the oil will affect the fridge life or maturation of the dough one way or the other?

- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline scott123

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #7 on: April 12, 2013, 06:36:31 PM »
That's a good question, GB.  I haven't really tracked fermentation activity with additional oil all that much, but I believe it does impact water activity, and, with increased aw you're going to see a faster ferment- but not as fast as if the additional oil was the same amount of additional water, so, again, with 1.5% the difference in fermentation may not be all that noticeable.

Perhaps Peter can chime in.  Since he's worked so much with higher oil doughs, he should have something to add.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #8 on: April 12, 2013, 08:38:36 PM »
GB,

I agree with Scott that the small amount of oil that you are talking about will not have a noticeable effect on fermentation. I have been playing around recently with Chigago thin style pizza doughs with 19% oil and that level of oil will suppress the fermentation, even at high levels of yeast (2.5% ADY in my case). I don't know where the oil really starts to affect the rate of fermentation. When I played around with Papa John's clone doughs with about 7% oil, I did not see a major effect on the rate of fermentation, even with small amounts of yeast. However, I did lower the formula hydration to reflect the high oil levels. Lowering the hydration value itself will slow down the rate of fermentation.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #9 on: April 12, 2013, 11:10:29 PM »
Quote
How are you planning to bake? What temps and what kind of oven setup?(forgive me. I'm new around here!)
FMontoya - I have an old gas oven with a broiler on the bottom.  When you set it on broil, there's no governer.  The flame just stays on; so the oven gets really hot (precise temp unknown, but we're betting over 600).  I'm old school with my baking surface.  It's quarry tiles cut to fit the oven rack.  I will post the results.  According to the pundits, the difference will be subtle at most.

Peter and Scott - Just a note:  I added the oil near the end of the mixing since I seem to recall that the oil can inhibit hydration when added first.

Peter - When you talk about effective hydration, do you view water and oil as equal by weight?

- GB
« Last Edit: April 12, 2013, 11:13:20 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #10 on: April 13, 2013, 08:00:59 AM »
Peter and Scott - Just a note:  I added the oil near the end of the mixing since I seem to recall that the oil can inhibit hydration when added first.

Peter - When you talk about effective hydration, do you view water and oil as equal by weight?

GB,

Adding the oil later in the process goes back to the work of E.J. Pyler. You can read more on this topic in Reply 3 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,21635.msg218669/topicseen.html#msg218669 and elsewhere in the same thread.

As for your question about the weighs of oil and water, technically a cup of water weighs 8.345 ounces and a cup of a typical oil weighs about 7.7 ounces. However, the weight of water mentioned above is for water at the level of the one-cup marking in the measuring cup with the measuring cup on a flat surface and viewed at eye level, using the lower meniscus. I am sure that is how you measure out a cup of water. Most people are more likely to measure out a cup of water that weighs around 8.1-8.2 ounces. So, the difference between oil and water from a weight standpoint is not large. You can read more about the "effective hydration" at Reply 1394 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3940.msg172230/topicseen.html#msg172230 and at Reply 10 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,7262.msg62673/topicseen.html#msg62673. Reply 10 references the PMQ Think Tank post by Tom Lehmann on this subject at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?p=38321#p38321.

To the above, I would add that there is a specific relationship between oil and the protein in flour. Member November discussed this topic starting at Reply 61 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,3985.msg40104.html#msg40104. November was a big advocate of using oil in a dough. In Replies 61 and 62, he even shows us how to apportion the oil in a dough formulation between the oil in the dough ball and the oil on the surface of the dough ball.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #11 on: April 13, 2013, 01:24:35 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  Very, very interesting.  Though I understood November's point, his numbers were bouncing off my forehead.  One point of clarification:  I don't rely on volume measurements for anything except IDY.  Are H2O and oil considered equivalent by weight as far as effective hydration is concerned?  If not, then what is the ratio by weight?  That was the essence of my question.  Thanks.

- GB
« Last Edit: April 13, 2013, 03:55:52 PM by Glutenboy »
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Pete-zza

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2013, 09:34:21 AM »
One point of clarification:  I don't rely on volume measurements for anything except IDY.  Are H2O and oil considered equivalent by weight as far as effective hydration is concerned?
GB,

As I noted in my last post, on a weight basis equal volumes of water and oil are about the same. However, the specific density of oil is less than that of water, which is why oil will float in water when added to the water. The way that I deal with the matter of oil in a dough is as follows. First, I decide on what hydration I want to use. For example, for a high-gluten flour, such as All Trumps of King Arthur Sir Lancelot, I might use a hydration value of 63%. That happens to be the rated absorption of those two flours. I then decide on how much oil I want to use. Say, it is 5%. What I do at this point is to subtract 5% from 63%. That gives me a value of 58% for the hydration. I don't try to fine tune it any more than that since I know that on an operational hydration basis, such as used in practice by bakers, a flour can tolerate a hydration increase from about 2-4% from its rated absorption value. I also know and can expect that I might have to tweak the amount of flour to get the desired "feel" for the final dough.

The above is just a simple way of arriving at workable values of hydration and oil. However, only the water can hydrate the flour. The oil cannot do that. What the oil does is to coat the gluten strands and make the dough more extensible (as well as adding some flavor to the finished crust and facilitating the rise of the dough). But, since the oil is a liquid, it has a wetting effect on the dough, and the degree of wetting will depend on the amount used.

Peter

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2013, 01:04:01 PM »
Thanks, Peter.  My take-home message from you is that you treat them as equivalent by weight.  Earlier in this thread, Scott had said that he backs off on the water a bit, but not on a one-to-one basis.  That's why I was focusing on that question.  The thing November said that I found interesting was that since the oil coats the hydrated gluten strands, it not only has its own "wetting" effect on the dough, but it actually causes real H2O moisture to be retained as well.  Almost ready to make my first pies (tonight or tomorrow); so I'll update then with pics.

- GB
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2013, 03:42:31 PM »
Since I'm experimenting, I also prepped 2 batches of tomatoes.  One was 2 cans of Trader Joe's whole salted plum tomatoes; the other was 2 cans of Cento certified (whatever it means) whole San Marzano tomatoes.  Both were prepped identically with a quick scalding using a little evoo, fresh garlic, crushed red pepper, and sea salt, followed by pulverizing with an immersion blender.

Observations so far:

1) TJ's were firmer, and they produced more volume of final product, which was a bit thicker.  I used some of the reserved canned tomato liquid to thin it just a tad.  Cento needed no thinning.

2) Cento tomatoes produced more sweetness when they carmelized in the skillet.  Very nice flavor.  TJ's gave me a much tarter, brighter flavor profile.   Both were good.  I think Cento won the initial taste test, but we'll see on the pizza.

More to come...
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #15 on: April 14, 2013, 03:49:41 PM »
GB, not sure how you will like sauce made with TJ's tomatoes but I found them horrible.  Passable for use in salsa but not for pizza IMO.  Their cheese is good tho.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #16 on: April 14, 2013, 04:06:26 PM »
Jackie -

In my experience it's hard to say anything about TJ's tomatoes on a consistent basis because I have found them so inconsistent from year to year and even can to can.  I don't know if they have multiple sources or they just switch frequently, but I've run the gamut from excellent to terrible using their exact same product.  Most of their stuff is more consistent than the tomatoes.  These weren't the best out of the can, but they weren't on the low end either.  I don't know what you think about this, but I find that after I prep them, they actually develop their full flavor after 2 days in the fridge.  Is that just me?  I'm sure there are many who would argue in favor of fresh from the can.  Something I never see anyone discuss.  Any thoughts?
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #17 on: April 14, 2013, 04:45:21 PM »
GB, I tend to judge my taste of tomatoes fresh from the can and then again when I add a bit of sugar to sweeten them and a bit of salt for balance.  If I am happy with the base tomatoes, then I will be happy regardless if I go with spices or no spices.   But yes, I can see the TJ tomatoes improving if you spice your sauce and leave it in the fridge for a few days.   The flavors should meld and the spices get infused into the sauce.  That's why I find it passable for salsa b/c of the other spices and flavors.  But alone, I 've only had 2 cans at different times and I didn't like them at all.  I just remembering thinking the 2nd time, "oh yeah, I remember now why I didn't like them the first time!"

But yes, I would be one to argue in favor of fresh from the can.  Even when I mix spices in, I like to mix it in a few hours before baking and use it up right away.   I will occasionally use sauce that was made 3-4 days out from the fridge but it's rare.

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #18 on: April 14, 2013, 05:08:23 PM »
I'm reaching the point where I will rarely ever use tomatoes on my pizza if they have been refrigerated, something about getting cold just ruins there taste on pizza. I like to open a fresh can, season them, and apply directly to my pizza. Any leftovers are used to make pasta sauce, which will be slow simmered for a while. I absolutely will not use tomatoes on a pizza if they have been frozen.

Offline Glutenboy

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Re: A Little Experiment
« Reply #19 on: April 14, 2013, 06:04:03 PM »
I agree wholeheartedly with "good fresh from the can, good on the pie."  The correlation is undeniable.  I also agree with "never refrigerate fresh tomatoes because it will kill their flavor."  Haven't found this applies after I scald the canned ones.  I've also tried using them from the can with and without seasoning and/or scalding.  I've never been happy with them right from the can (even with salting).  I think this may have to do with my oven not being hot enough to cook the tomatoes sufficiently on the pie.  I'm using a home oven, albeit a hot one.  I have a hunch if I had a WFBO or even a baking steel, my experience would be more in line with yours.  Do you have any advice?  Anything I can do to unlock the flavor of the canned tomatoes without cooking?  I want bright, fresh, sweet tomato flavor.  Just haven't found it straight from the can yet.
Quote under my pic excludes Little Caesar's.


 

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