Author Topic: occident flour  (Read 1283 times)

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Offline pete zappie

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occident flour
« on: April 17, 2013, 01:40:40 PM »
i have been doing a lot of experments with occident flour and am pleased with most results . the texture turns out the lightest and fluffyest i have baked yet. i always thought caputo pizera flour was going to be the best at producing this flavor and texture what a surprise. i even went 50/50 with 00 and perfered 100 % occident. however when used for a lou malnati pan the crust has a  dryer  texture, too bad because it has good flavor too. so what im wondering is if this dough didddnt work out for the pan pizzas because the flour requires more hydration than 45%, or maybe i need a different flour all together , suggestions welcome please . and as far as the neo / wfo pies ,occident seemed better {to me} so why do most perfer the 00 .... is it dough performance / handeling the vpn ?? why do you like 00 better? just my thoughts what are yours....thanks!!


Online TXCraig1

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Re: occident flour
« Reply #1 on: April 17, 2013, 02:09:21 PM »
i have been doing a lot of experments with occident flour and am pleased with most results . the texture turns out the lightest and fluffyest i have baked yet. i always thought caputo pizera flour was going to be the best at producing this flavor and texture what a surprise. i even went 50/50 with 00 and perfered 100 % occident. however when used for a lou malnati pan the crust has a  dryer  texture, too bad because it has good flavor too. so what im wondering is if this dough didddnt work out for the pan pizzas because the flour requires more hydration than 45%, or maybe i need a different flour all together , suggestions welcome please . and as far as the neo / wfo pies ,occident seemed better {to me} so why do most perfer the 00 .... is it dough performance / handeling the vpn ?? why do you like 00 better? just my thoughts what are yours....thanks!!

Occident and Caputo Pizzeria are very different flours. Occident is both malted and bromated and probably a bit coarser grind, but I donít know that for sure. Given that you prefer Occident, Iím guessing that you run your WFO a lot cooler than I do. I've never tried Occident, but I've tried other malted flours, and they brown too easily for me. I also canít think of a reason to use bromated flour at true Neapolitan temperatures and rapid bake times.

I use Caputo Pizzeria because, IMO, it produces Neapolitan pies (Neapolitan - not nearlypolitan) at level above anything else. It doesn't matter what aspect of the dough or pie youíre judging Ė handling, flavor, texture, appearance, etc. IMO, Caputo Pizzeria wins every time.   

Also note that while Caputo Pizzeria is Ď00í, all Ď00í is not Caputo Pizzeria. 00 flours come in a wide range of specifications (protein, moisture, ash, W, P/L, absorption, etc.). I've tried 00 flours I didn't care for at all.
Pizza is not bread.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: occident flour
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2013, 02:28:46 PM »
pete,

The Occident flour has a protein content of 12.2%. That is bread flour territory. Also, that flour is bleached and bromated.

I think you will find that most members prefer all-purpose flour for a Chicago deep-dish style. Most all-purpose flours have a protein content of around 10.5-11%, although there are some H&R (hotel and restaurant) all-purpose flours that lean toward the low side from the standpoint of protein content. A popular choice of all-purpose flour for Chicago deep-dish and cracker style pizzas is the Ceresota or Hecker's brand (they are the same flour). It has been said that those brands of flour are higher in protein content than other all-purpose flours but, based on gluten mass tests that Norma conducted on one of these flours, I am not so sure. But the Ceresota/Hecker's flours are good flours for the Chicago styles.

In your case, you could try combining the Occident flour with all-purpose flour to lower its protein content but I am afraid that you would end up with over 90% all-purpose flour. The better way to go would be to just use a good all-purpose flour. Alternatively, you might try increasing the hydration value for your recipe since the Occident flour, as essentially a bread flour, has a higher rated absorption value. I don't know if this will work, but it may be worth a try.

The Caputo 00 Pizzeria flour is not intended for the Chicago styles of pizza. Several years ago, and largely out of curiosity, I attempted some Neapolitan-inspired Chicago deep-dish pizzas using the Caputo 00 flour. The results were quite good (http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,2365.msg20625.html#msg20625) but atypical of the classic Chicago deep-dish style. I try not to discourage anyone from trying new and different things but I think that the 00 flours are best used for the Neapolitan style and, more specifically, in the context of very high temperature ovens. In this respect, I agree with Craig, who was posting as I was composing.

Peter

Offline dmcavanagh

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Re: occident flour
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2013, 04:30:26 PM »
I can't speak for Neapolitan pies, but I use occident for my NY style and like it a lot. I use the Con Agra occident, it's protein rating is 12.4 and it is a very finely milled, malted, bromated flour. Not only do I use it for pizza, but it makes breads as well. Not an easy flour to find in grocery stores, you usually have to find it in other places, at least where I live. For whatever reason it is very popular in areas with Amish populations here in NY state.
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Offline pete zappie

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Re: occident flour
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2013, 08:01:16 PM »
thankyou for your replys:

craig-- i guess temp could be a factor, for the occcident the oven was in the 700s, when i did caputo in the 800s-- when i did it in the 900s i got burning issues. you mentioned in another thread about conductive hearth/ refractory materials being a factor in burning, at that i lowered the temp rather than adjust the percentages. i have only been in the wfo game for a year now so im still learning, i would like to get the temps back up with better quality and taste. i also appreciate you mentioning Caputo Pizzeria as the better 00 flour for pizza , i was always a little confused by all the 00 flours.

peter---occident taste so good in the detroit and new york style and i just figured it would improve the pan pies too but not yet for me anyway.as far as hydration goes , any suggestions on a %? i have been using bakers and chefs bread flour with good results but since i have access to commercial flours i wanted to use the best available. that being the case do you still recomend the cerasota.... caputo in a pan pie, i would have thought it not to be hot enough , but after reading your thread on it i might have to go there if not but once.

dmcavanagh ----yes i agree a very tasty flour, probly the best i have tasted so far . though i thought caputo would/ should be. what kind of bread do you make , any threads of the process--- do you/could you  just use leftover pizza dough or should it be something more?

thanks again guys i appreciate your help

Online Pete-zza

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Re: occident flour
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 10:35:55 AM »
peter---occident taste so good in the detroit and new york style and i just figured it would improve the pan pies too but not yet for me anyway.as far as hydration goes , any suggestions on a %? i have been using bakers and chefs bread flour with good results but since i have access to commercial flours i wanted to use the best available. that being the case do you still recomend the cerasota....
pete,

I think the Occident flour should be able to handle a hydration of around 61-62%. However, that is for a standard dough. Most deep-dish doughs contain a lot of oil, so the formula hydration will be lower than the above value. You might try dropping the formula hydration of your deep-dish dough by a few percent to see if that helps. As for the Ceresota flour, I have not personally tried it inasmauch as that flour is not sold in the Texas market. Some time ago, while I was visiting the Northeast, I located and bought a 5-lb bag of the Heckers flour, which is the same as the Ceresota flour, to try out but the bugs got to the flour before I did. Such are the perils of the hot Texas summers. In your case, if you are able to buy a small bag of the Ceresota/Heckers flour, I think it would be worth a try.

Peter