Author Topic: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven  (Read 2441 times)

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Offline forzaroma

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Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« on: April 18, 2013, 12:38:57 PM »
Hi everyone

I have been working in a wood burning pizzeria for about 2 years and love that type of pizza more than anything in the world. I recently took a job at a pizzeria that does neopolitan type if pizza with a marsal brick oven.

My question is how can I closely mimic the effects of neopolitan pizza in terms if cornicione puffiness and tender dough. The recipe they use is made with 00 yeast sugar oil salt and lard. I have free range to change it up. What you guys think?


Online scott123

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #1 on: April 18, 2013, 12:58:18 PM »
As far as I know, unless the oven has been seriously hacked, it's not possible to get a 90 second pizza out of a Marsal.  If it's not 90 seconds or less, it's not Neapolitan. Without a 90 second bake, it's not going to have the 'cornicione puffiness and tender dough' of Neapolitan pizza- at least, not with a traditional NP dough.

The Marsal could easily be the best tool on the market for NY style.  That's what it's engineered for.  You've already got one foot in the NY realm with the addition of lard.  Forget the Neapolitan label, embrace NY completely and go with a more temperature specific flour- that's the only way you're going to get the puffiness and tenderness at 3+ minutes.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #2 on: April 18, 2013, 01:05:15 PM »
I'm not looking to do a 3 minute bake or have it neopolitan. I'm looking for a cross if neopolitan and ny style . I cannot embrace ny pizza in this restaurant. It's kind if fine dining and not a slice joint, I can omit and I actually have omitted the lard on done rest runs. Some pizzas I actually got a good puffy cornicione.

Online scott123

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #3 on: April 18, 2013, 01:16:03 PM »
What's your current bake time?

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #4 on: April 18, 2013, 01:23:18 PM »
Oven gets to 650 and bake times are from 6-8 minutes

Online scott123

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #5 on: April 18, 2013, 01:27:08 PM »
So, just to be clear, you believe it's possible that some kind of recipe modification will give you a NY/Neapolitan hybrid in a 650 oven making 6 minute pizzas?

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #6 on: April 18, 2013, 01:34:39 PM »
I'm just asking isn't that what this forum is for? I really only gave experience with neopolitan pizza, do that's why I came here.

Online scott123

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #7 on: April 18, 2013, 02:12:19 PM »
Michael, if you bake a pizza for 6 minutes, there's absolutely nothing Neapolitan-ish about it.  Regardless of your incorrect assessment that NY style pizza can't be served in a fine dining setting, if you're baking it for 6 minutes, it's NY style, and, if you're using unmalted flour, it's not going to be as tender or as puffy as a temperature specific flour would be.

Below is a photo of what a Marsal can do (taken from this video clip here).  That pizza would be incredibly profitable in any fine dining setting.

Delfina hacks their Marsal to 700ish and uses 00, but that's San Francisco. In a more discerning pizza market like NY, I don't think a 3-4 minute 00 pizza would survive very long.

Chau thinks 00 can part the Red Sea, so I'm sure he'll have some pointers for you, but, from this NYers perspective, 00 in a Marsal is a tragedy.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #8 on: April 18, 2013, 02:45:39 PM »
I agree with u on the 00. Just made a batch with all trumps salt yeast sugar and oil. I'm saying by style in terms of this is not a slice joint we make 12 inch pies is what I'm saying. I have nothing against my style pizza. I live in NY as well.

Offline TomN

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #9 on: April 18, 2013, 03:28:26 PM »
forzaroma,

Can you post a picture of that Marsal Brick Oven? I would love to see what it looks like.
Thanks

TomN


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #10 on: April 18, 2013, 04:45:26 PM »
Scott I don't think caputo 00 can part the red sea, nor do I think making a good 4min pie with caputo 00 is a miracle.  I have made several very good 4min NY pies using caputo 00 flour.  I've also blended it with HG flour to make some really good NY/NP hybrid pies as Forzaroma is referring to in the 3min realm.  I've never said that 00 outperforms malted flours for NY pizza.  I don't even have a preference for it.  I just stated it can be used to make a crust that is not tough at 4min.  I will work on a 6-8min dough soon using caputo.  Wish me luck.  I'll post results if I am sucessful.

But I agree with you.  NP is sub 2 min.  So no you can't make NP in the marshall but one might be able to make a decent NY crust using 00 in the marshall.  I've never baked in a Marshall oven but if it's doable in a home oven, it may be doable in a marshall.  I will try and update this thread.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 05:56:44 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #11 on: April 18, 2013, 04:56:48 PM »
Here u go

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #12 on: April 18, 2013, 05:07:49 PM »
Talk to me about that 4 minute pie.

Offline Gianni5

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #13 on: April 18, 2013, 05:39:28 PM »
Forzaroma,
You should really consider modifying the thermostat of that marsal.  It's a really simple modification and as scott said that's what they do at pizzeria Delfina in sf and they do a 4 min bake using Caputo 00.  It's definetely not authentic pizza Napoletana but it's pretty damn good and the place is always packed.

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #14 on: April 18, 2013, 06:01:47 PM »
Ok I'm all ears

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #15 on: April 18, 2013, 06:05:00 PM »
Forzaroma, I posted the videos here in reply #27

caputo 00 flour baked with a floor temp of ~700F for right at 4 minutes. 

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,22175.msg248305.html#msg248305

4 minutes to me is NY territory.  If you are looking for something NY/NP you will need to be in the 2m - 3m realm. 
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 06:16:20 PM by Jackie Tran »

Online scott123

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #16 on: April 18, 2013, 06:29:24 PM »
I have made several very good 4min NY pies using caputo 00 flour.

At sea level? Without the oven spring providing benefits of elevation?  >:D

Chau, you made a caputo 4 min. pizza that far exceeded my expectations and I ate plenty of humble pie for it, but it's going to be a cold day in heck when I give people the impression that 00 might, with experimentation, be comparable or superior to malted flour in 4 or 6 minute bakes- which, by talking about 'very good' past results, you're effectively doing.

Experimentation is great, and I applaud your efforts to squeeze as much performance as you can out of Caputo, but, on the business side, Michael doesn't need beta testing, he needs the stable version, the tried and true- and for you, me and everyone else that takes 4-6 minute pizza seriously, that's bromated malted.

Btw, I don't think a Marsal can dip too much below 4 minutes. At least not with Caputo  ;D

Also, I took a minute to see if I could find some of the history as to why flour started being enriched with malt, and, while I couldn't come up with anything, I did come up with this (bold mine):

https://www.ndmill.com/faq.cfm

Quote
Q: What is malt, why is it used and where does it come from?
A: Malt, in this industry, is actually malted barley flour. The malted barley comes from maltsters (the same ones who supply brewers their malt). It is usually 6 row barley as you see grown in this area. The malting process used is one to maximize the alpha amylase (diastatic) activity in the malt. The malted barley is then ground into flour and used to malt bakery flours. The reason malt is added to most bakery flours, is that it adds a desired level of alpha amylase activity to the dough. This slightly mellows the gluten, reducing complex sugars in the dough system to simple sugars which directly feed the yeast (this also aids in the browning of the crust).

Offline forzaroma

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #17 on: April 18, 2013, 06:32:14 PM »
Chau I'm at 650 give me a recipe to experiment with. I make batches of 60 balls at 265 g

Online shuboyje

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #18 on: April 18, 2013, 07:17:54 PM »
Supino here in Detroit makes New York Style pies with more artisan toppings in a Marsal oven.  Their pies would sell like hot cakes in any high end restaurant. Want some proof?  Zagat's actually ranks them as Detroit's top Restaurant, that's not just pizzerias, the best of all eateries in the Metro Detroit area.  Pretty serious stuff.

I would take any advice Scott gives you, work on some artisan style toppings, increase the pies from 12" to 14", and be prepared to make a lot of pizza because you will have a serious winner. 
-Jeff

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Neopolitan pizza in a Marsal brick oven
« Reply #19 on: April 18, 2013, 07:45:53 PM »
At sea level? Without the oven spring providing benefits of elevation?

Scott, I'm not sure that oven spring is solely responsible for crumb tenderness.  Our original debate was whether 00 could make a tender crumb with a 4 minute bake which as I have shown, it can.  The crumb would be just as tender regardless of the oven spring.  If you look at the 2nd pie I posted, especially where I show the crumb, it has less oven spring than the first pie and just as tender.  And this mind you, is without the benefit of adding oil to the dough which would only further enhance the tenderness. 

As far as baking at sea level.  No worries, I've got a flight booked to Houston, Tx this summer.  I will have access to a home oven and WFO.  Tell me what you want to see, and I will make it for you.  You want explosive tender crumb at sea level?  Just ask me Scott and I will do it for you.  >:D

Gianni 5 posted... pizzeria Delfina in sf and they do a 4 min bake using Caputo 00.  It's definetely not authentic pizza Napoletana but it's pretty damn good and the place is always packed.

This sounds like sea level and doesn't sound tough, but I've never been there.  I don't think that I'm the only person out there who can make a 4 min tender caputo pie.   I think there have been 2-3 other forum members who have also made caputo pies in the home oven and say that it wasn't tough.   Micheal from Isreal is one person that comes to mind at the moment.

on the business side, Michael doesn't need beta testing, he needs the stable version, the tried and true- and for you, me and everyone else that takes 4-6 minute pizza seriously, that's bromated malted.

Scott I don't disagree with you.  I'm haven't nor I am making any recommendations for his commercial business.  You made a comment about caputo at lower temps and I am just responding to that.   Micheal was wanting to make NP pizza in a deck oven.  I agree with you that it can't be done even if he modified his oven.  He can't even do NY/NP.  He can do NY style though.  And yes, I would point him towards your recommendations for that. 

Chau I'm at 650 give me a recipe to experiment with. I make batches of 60 balls at 265 g
Sorry I can't give you a recipe to try out.  I can give you some pointers for using caputo at lower than NP temps.  If you can get around 700F, I know you can make a decent 4 min ish NY pie.  I'm not going to say it won't work for longer bakes.  It may not, I don't know.  But I will try it out though. 

First don't make a 60 ball experimental batch.  Experiments aren't often successful on the first try and you don't want to waste that much dough.  I would make a 6 ball batch.   I would increase your hydration about 2% points from your normal NY style recipe.  I would also think about adding 1-2% oil (even though I didn't).  I would do a quick initial mix, followed by a 30 rest period, then do a series of stretch and folds to build strength.  I would allow the bulk mass to increase in size at between 25-50% before balling.  Don't ball it after a few hours of bulk as many NY pizzerias do.  You can also add a bit of sugar or dry milk to the dough for color enhancement if you want, although I didn't.   But only try these tips out if you want to play around with caputo at lower than NP temps.  I'm only making these suggestions b/c you asked.  YMMV.  ;D

Chau
« Last Edit: April 18, 2013, 08:01:57 PM by Jackie Tran »