Author Topic: Not sure what to make of this crumb...  (Read 420 times)

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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« on: September 02, 2014, 09:02:10 PM »
Experimental dough: 75% hydrated dough (+ 3% EVOO).  :-\
Il miglior fabbro


Offline vtsteve

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2014, 02:09:12 AM »
It looks like the top is trying to 'fly', doesn't it (bit of a cave on top, dense bottom)?

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2014, 10:30:38 AM »
That's a pretty good description.  This dough was given a serious pat down (in oiled baking tray), too.

I've been experimenting with a new 75% hydration "sicilian" formula, more like a cross between NY style sicilian and pizzarium style, where after making a 100% hydrated batter (CY already whisked into water), 3% of the oil is added (whisked into the batter), followed by salt and lastly the remaining flour. The crumb shots are representative of this effort. Baked in gas oven, middle rack at 290 deg celsius.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2014, 10:39:15 AM »
I think it's a symptom of weak gluten. As you move up the dough column, at some point there isn't enough weight of dough to keep the gluten from tearing thus you get big holes at the top and a more closed crumb below.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline parallei

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2014, 11:16:26 AM »
These Baker's "caves" or "tunnels" were just discussed in reference to bread making. I can't find the thread.

When I looked into it, I got all sorts of suggestions on The Fresh Loaf:  Over-proofing, under-proofing, weak gluten development.....

What work for me, as I felt my gluten development was fine, was not being quite so gentle with the final loaf forming and getting a bit more of the gasses out.  I hate to say it, but I think it is a combo of maybe weak gluten, and letting to many big bubbles form and maybe over-proofing.

PS

I know pizza is not bread, but one could argue (though I will not) that this stuff is closer to bread than pizza. ;D

Offline jeff v

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2014, 12:04:32 PM »
I think it's a symptom of weak gluten. As you move up the dough column, at some point there isn't enough weight of dough to keep the gluten from tearing thus you get big holes at the top and a more closed crumb below.

I guess I usually think of "weak" gluten as poorly developed and the bottom of the third pic looks like you have good gluten development to me. Now if that gluten is strong enough to hold the weight of a highly hydrated dough is something else. Weak could be the word I guess.  :-[

My other thoughts are it could have over proofed in the pan. Or because it is such high hydration there isn't enough surface tension to hold the bubbles in, so you get the "settling" you see.

Back to being a civilian pizza maker only.

Offline TXCraig1

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2014, 12:07:02 PM »
When I say "weak," I don't mean it as a pejorative but simply in a mechanical sense.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2014, 12:23:41 PM »
I think it's a symptom of weak gluten. As you move up the dough column, at some point there isn't enough weight of dough to keep the gluten from tearing thus you get big holes at the top and a more closed crumb below.

That makes sense. I know it's very relative, but for this dough I used flour rated at 12% protein.  I think the "cutting in" of the EVOO as described (before the incorporation of the remaining flour - in this case, 25% worth) could have contributed to the weak gluten.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2014, 12:30:22 PM »
These Baker's "caves" or "tunnels" were just discussed in reference to bread making. I can't find the thread.

When I looked into it, I got all sorts of suggestions on The Fresh Loaf:  Over-proofing, under-proofing, weak gluten development.....

What work for me, as I felt my gluten development was fine, was not being quite so gentle with the final loaf forming and getting a bit more of the gasses out.  I hate to say it, but I think it is a combo of maybe weak gluten, and letting to many big bubbles form and maybe over-proofing.

PS

I know pizza is not bread, but one could argue (though I will not) that this stuff is closer to bread than pizza. ;D

Interesting points. I tend to agree that they result from "overproofing". In some cases, this is the desired effect.  Every now and then, members of the Pizzarium group on Facebook post their "ready to bake" dough, and it's safe to assume that the vast majority have been allowed to triple in size - sometimes a bit more.

This dough also underwent a longer bulk fermentation than usual - when I divided the dough for scaling and balling - the interior of the dough was heavily spotted with mustard to sesame seed sized holes. Kind of funky to describe- one of those cases where a pic would have come in handy :-D
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2014, 12:39:57 PM »
I guess I usually think of "weak" gluten as poorly developed and the bottom of the third pic looks like you have good gluten development to me. Now if that gluten is strong enough to hold the weight of a highly hydrated dough is something else. Weak could be the word I guess.  :-[

My other thoughts are it could have over proofed in the pan. Or because it is such high hydration there isn't enough surface tension to hold the bubbles in, so you get the "settling" you see.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Besides the overproofing, high hydration and bubble formation  I'm almost certain that the funky crumb can also be attributed to my dough handling - specifically when stretching and massaging the dough ball out to fit the pan...I'm going to have to start taking notes!
Il miglior fabbro


Online norma427

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2014, 06:34:19 PM »
Johnny,

I also did some experiments and had crumbs turned out something like you did. 

One such post was at Reply 271 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9946.msg123363#msg123363   Most of that thread was when I was trying to make a pizza like Pizzarium.  I made my most successful Pizzarium attempt at Reply 225 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,9989.msg124520.html#msg124520   I still cannot make a Pizzarium pizza consistently.  :-D

Norma
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Offline Johnny the Gent

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2014, 06:59:44 PM »
Norma,

I just took a look at the first link and there is a bit of a resemblance - but your dough looks...um...healthier than mine, if you know what I mean.  Some doughs look like they were meant to be, whereas others look like they could have used some help along the way  ;) As to your last pizzarium attempt, I'd say it doesn't get much better than that.

Il miglior fabbro

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #12 on: September 03, 2014, 07:51:17 PM »
J,

In matters like this, I try to keep in mind what I read at the theartisan.net website about the desirability of keeping gas production and gas retention in balance. That subject is covered at http://www.theartisan.net/The_Artisan_Yeast_Treatise_Section_Two.htm, but I reproduced the pertinent parts at Reply 112 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=8146.msg70995;topicseen#msg70995. In addition to what is discussed at the theartisan.net, it is also important to keep in mind that if the dough is fermented for a long time, the protease enzymes and acids formed during fermentation can dismantle the gluten matrix to the point where gas retention is severely impaired. I would imagine that this is more pronounced the higher the hydration value because of the marked increase in extensibility of the dough. As for the oil, I recall that Tom Lehmann recently commented that the oil added too soon can impair the hydration of the flour and gluten formation. As you may know, Tom is an advocate of adding oil late in the dough mixing process, with credit for that approach being given to E. J. Pyler.

Peter

Online norma427

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Re: Not sure what to make of this crumb...
« Reply #13 on: September 03, 2014, 09:24:44 PM »
Thanks for sharing your thoughts.  Besides the overproofing, high hydration and bubble formation  I'm almost certain that the funky crumb can also be attributed to my dough handling - specifically when stretching and massaging the dough ball out to fit the pan...I'm going to have to start taking notes!

Johnny,

If you search my other thread below using Jackie Tran as the name you can also see he posted about having some problems with overproofing, high hydration and bubble formation.  You are right that the dough handling is also tricky and has a lot to do in how the final results turn out.  I hope you do take notes in what happens with your doughs and final crumbs.  ;D With all what you have mastered so far in the pizza world it will make it a lot easier for me and other members to duplicate what you do.  You are a great pizza maker!  :chef: :pizza: :pizza:

I had many failures in the below thread   This was another of my better attempts, but still not right at Reply 244 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=9946.msg122397#msg122397 

Norma
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