Author Topic: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG  (Read 5153 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #40 on: February 23, 2014, 07:13:42 PM »
The white Kamut khorosan flour I have is 14% protein.  It is an "ancient grain" flour and  some people compare it to spelt flour.  Apparently it's fairly common in Italy where they even have Kamut pizza competitions.  Unfortunately, I've yet to get a definitive operational hydration for it.  There's only one pizzeria on the US that uses it to make an excellent American-style pizza, but they will not part with that information.

OK, considering the 14% protein content, I'd start at 70%, with subsequent bakes using 75% and 80% hydration.  I'll take the liberty to suggest a formula:

100% kamut flour
70% water
2% EVOO
2% salt
.5% compressed yeast

I'd incorporate a 100% hydrated poolish (for a couple hours), then slowly incorporate the remaining flour, followed by salt and lastly oil.  Give the dough a good 4/5 slap and folds (at 10 minute intervals) on the bench before allowing to bulk ferment for a couple hours. Divide, stretch & fold and ball, and place in the fridge for 24 to 72 hours.   Allow dough to come to room temp and triple in size before shaping to fit pan.
Il miglior fabbro


Offline Gags

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 242
  • Location: Huntington Beach, CA
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #41 on: February 24, 2014, 02:18:53 PM »
Wrapping up Sunday with a pizza...24 hour cold rise dough.

100% flour ( 15% sifted whole wheat flour, 85% AP flour)
80% water
2% EVOO
2% non iodized salt
.4% CY

Topped with EVOO, whole milk mozz, homemade pork sausage, red onions and escarole. Good combination!

Johnny,

Your mastery of Pizzarium-style is inspiring and these look amazing (as usual)!
Great stuff and thanks for posting the pix!!

"I'd trade it all for just a little bit more"

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2014, 07:46:43 PM »
Johnny,

Your mastery of Pizzarium-style is inspiring and these look amazing (as usual)!
Great stuff and thanks for posting the pix!!

Gags, thanks for the compliment! Far from mastery- but I'm enjoying the journey  ;)
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #43 on: March 01, 2014, 08:04:14 AM »
Starting off my low-key Carnaval holiday on the right foot.

8 day old 80% hydrated dough (15% sifted whole wheat, 85% AP flour).  Baked naked, rested for a few minutes, sliced in half and filled with custardy scrambled eggs, deli-sliced turkey breast and escarole quickly sauteed in EVOO.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21136
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #44 on: March 01, 2014, 08:58:05 AM »
Starting off my low-key Carnaval holiday on the right foot.

8 day old 80% hydrated dough (15% sifted whole wheat, 85% AP flour).  Baked naked, rested for a few minutes, sliced in half and filled with custardy scrambled eggs, deli-sliced turkey breast and escarole quickly sauteed in EVOO.

Johnny,

Looks delicious!   :drool:

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #45 on: March 01, 2014, 09:04:57 AM »
Thanks Norma! I almost added some cream cheese as well, but ditched the thought, thinking it might have been a little too busy. It was a good breakfast.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #46 on: March 24, 2014, 08:41:48 PM »
This was a 73% hydration dough. I incorporated a 4 hour long autolyse, and I don't think I'll be doing that again :o. The dough was extremely slack and I had real difficulty in developing the dough strength (upwards of 10 stretch and folds, spread out over the first couple hours, with a couple S&F's performed on the cold refridgerated dough. Diminished returns with extended autolyse? Anybody else who's experimented with an extended autolyse notice this?

3% sourdough starter (maintained at around 90-95% hydration, fed with a mixture of whole wheat and rye flour), 2% salt, no oil. Dough made using 9.8% AP flour (Vilma brand).

Topped with tomato sauce (Mutti tomatoes with minced garlic and marjoram) and parbaked, then laid on the w.milk mozz, mushrooms, onions and strips of ham rubbed in sweet paprika and EVOO. Despite the hard work, this pie came out good - so in the end it was worth it.

Il miglior fabbro

Offline jsaras

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 458
  • Location: Northridge, CA
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #47 on: March 24, 2014, 09:00:05 PM »
Your dough "mistakes" are better than most people's successes.
Things have never been more like today than they are right now.

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #48 on: March 25, 2014, 07:46:03 PM »
Thanks jsaras. In the future I'll probably stick to a 1:30 hr autolyse max. I'm just glad that I didn't give up on the dough, that would have been a waste.  ;)
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #49 on: March 25, 2014, 08:34:57 PM »
In the future I'll probably stick to a 1:30 hr autolyse max. I'm just glad that I didn't give up on the dough, that would have been a waste.  ;)

J,

I have long been curious about the "best" or "most desirable" length of autolyse rest periods, especially since the duration is a question that properly comes up from time to time. We have had members use as little as ten minutes to overnight for pizza dough. But, in the bread world, autolyse periods tend to be quite short, especially in relation to the amount of dough made. I examined this facet for several dough recipes in Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread given that he was the "father" of the autolyse method as applied to French bread. For my findings, see Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624. As I have noted before, autolyse is one of those things where people conclude that if a little is good, then using much more must be a lot better.

Peter


Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #50 on: March 26, 2014, 06:31:06 PM »
J,

I have long been curious about the "best" or "most desirable" length of autolyse rest periods, especially since the duration is a question that properly comes up from time to time. We have had members use as little as ten minutes to overnight for pizza dough. But, in the bread world, autolyse periods tend to be quite short, especially in relation to the amount of dough made. I examined this facet for several dough recipes in Professor Calvel's book The Taste of Bread given that he was the "father" of the autolyse method as applied to French bread. For my findings, see Reply 15 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=3220.msg74624;topicseen#msg74624. As I have noted before, autolyse is one of those things where people conclude that if a little is good, then using much more must be a lot better.

Peter


As you've noted, I figured if a little is good than more would be better. Not sure that's the case. I'm very accustomed to working with high hydration doughs, especially since I make all my pie and bread dough by hand - but something about that 4 hour long autolyse just didn't seem right.  I really had to work hard to get it "serviceable"...And I do recall another time I left only the flour and water together (around 80% hydration) for an extended period of time (12 hours - this was by accident!), I had to throw that dough out because I couldn't develop the gluten sufficiently. Eventually I'd like to be able to understand what actually happens to the dough as a result of a long autolyse...Thanks for your thoughts on this Peter!
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21679
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #51 on: March 26, 2014, 08:35:35 PM »
Eventually I'd like to be able to understand what actually happens to the dough as a result of a long autolyse...Thanks for your thoughts on this Peter!

J,

Eventually is now :-D. What essentially happens during the autolyse rest period is a softening of the gluten that is formed by combining flour and water. What causes this softening is the action of protease enzymes to attack the gluten matrix. When the autolyse rest period is short, the damage to the gluten is minimal. However, when the autolyse period is a very extended one, the proteolytic action can dismantle the gluten matrix and cause water to be released from its bond, rendering the dough wet and clammy and difficult to work with, if at all. The same thing can happen for a normally fermented dough but it normally takes a long time for this to happen. You can read more on this subject at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145957;topicseen#msg145957.

You might also find the following threads of interest in that they relate to what is often called a soaker dough, which is similar to an autolysed dough. Soaker doughs are doughs that are made from only flour and water and allowed to rest for very long periods--for example, overnight--before using with preferments and other dough ingredients to make a final dough that can be used to make pizzas:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7770.msg66722#msg66722

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19129.0

Peter

 

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #52 on: April 21, 2014, 01:53:05 PM »
J,

Eventually is now :-D. What essentially happens during the autolyse rest period is a softening of the gluten that is formed by combining flour and water. What causes this softening is the action of protease enzymes to attack the gluten matrix. When the autolyse rest period is short, the damage to the gluten is minimal. However, when the autolyse period is a very extended one, the proteolytic action can dismantle the gluten matrix and cause water to be released from its bond, rendering the dough wet and clammy and difficult to work with, if at all. The same thing can happen for a normally fermented dough but it normally takes a long time for this to happen. You can read more on this subject at Reply 35 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145978;topicseen#msg145978 and Reply 29 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=14610.msg145957;topicseen#msg145957.

You might also find the following threads of interest in that they relate to what is often called a soaker dough, which is similar to an autolysed dough. Soaker doughs are doughs that are made from only flour and water and allowed to rest for very long periods--for example, overnight--before using with preferments and other dough ingredients to make a final dough that can be used to make pizzas:

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=7770.msg66722#msg66722

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php?topic=19129.0

Peter


Eventually is now :-D  Sorry about the late response.  As always, thanks for your thoughts and the informative links.
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Johnny the Gent

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1218
  • Bake strong!
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #53 on: April 21, 2014, 02:29:14 PM »
Here's a 70% hydrated dough that was NOT originally intended for use as a Pizzarium style dough, but as a high hydrated NY style dough. Here's the formula I used:

985 gms AP flour (9.8% protein) + 15 gms VWG = 1000 gms flour
685 gms water
20 gms EVOO
17 gms non iodized salt
4 gms fresh CY

I mixed the flour & VWG together, then added this to the water.  Once all the flour particles were hydrated, I gave the dough a couple loose folds and left it alone to autolyse for 25 minutes.

Next, I moistened the CY with 5 gms of water to form a paste, which I spread over the dough. A couple minutes of kneading followed by a couple stretch and folds, then I added the salt, giving the dough 5 more stretch and folds.

I then added the oil, which was incorporated throughout the dough by kneading and several stretch and folds. The doughball went into an oiled ss bowl, covered with clingfilm and into the fridge where it bulk fermented for 4 hours.  Next, I divided and balled 4 ~260 gm doughballs. There was a bunch of leftover dough, which was used for the pie below.  I didn't weight it, but it was around 475 gms or so.  I was going to make a Sicilian style pie but ended up making a pizza insalata - salad pizza.

The first two pics are of the parbaked dough - topped with EVOO, a little tomato sauce and a light scattering of mozz as well as some cubed mozz.

The rest of the pics are of the final pizza insalata, topped with rocket, thin shaved carrots, thinly sliced red and green bell peppers, cherry tomatoes, fontina cheese shavings, parma ham and EVOO. You CAN have your salad and eat it too!  :-D OK, showing myself to the door now...
Il miglior fabbro

Offline Matthew

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 2228
Re: Pizzarium style pizzas made with AP flour supplemented with VWG
« Reply #54 on: April 21, 2014, 04:51:04 PM »
Great job Johnny!


Matt