More DKM recipe questions

[Slamdunkpro]

I’ve been making NY style for a while and thought I’d give Chicago a shot. I tried DKM’s recipe from the front page and while the results were OK (taste was great just a couple of textural issues) I thought that you pizza gods could field a few questions:

1.   The dough seemed sticky, I had to add almost an additional ½ cup of flour to get it to ball in the mixer (no I didn’t weight the ingredients – a scale has been ordered for next time)

2.   I used a 14 inch commercial raw aluminum pizza pan straight on the racks of the oven (gas) and the pizza took almost an hour and was still a little undercooked on the bottom and sides.  I will procure a 14 inch black steel pan but I hate to just ditch the aluminum one – Would cooking with the aluminum pan on my pizza stone allow for better heat transfer to the bottom? Anyone try this using an iron skillet?

3.   DKM calls for a 7-minute machine knead yet several posters and recipes call for a shorter hand knead (I’m assuming for less gluten) thoughts?

4.   DKM calls for canola oil – can you substitute olive oil?

Thanks all!

Michael

[foodblogger]

I made DKM's recipe as well.  It was amazing. 

1)  As far as sticky dough, did the dough stick to the sides of the bowl?  What I am getting at is was the dough truly too wet or was it an oilier dough than you are used to working with.  Chicago Style Deep Dish has a lot of oil in it compared to most other doughs.  If the dough was too wet (sticking to the sides of the bowl) then you certainly did the right thing.  Just add a little more flour.

2)  I don't think the pizza pan is going to make the difference between an undercooked pizza and a done pizza.  The pan adds something very subtle that most people who don't make pizza all the time wouldn't even notice.  The important thing is that you are using a well oiled pan with straight up and down sides.  Did you have the pan on the bottom rack?  Did you have the oven at 450 degrees truly?  Most people recommend preheating the oven for an hour before putting in the pizza.  The other thing to consider is that most oven thermometers are horribly inaccurate.  If I were you I would get an oven thermometer and check the temp of the oven after preheating for a while.  I have seen ovens be off by as much as 100 degrees - unfortunately one of these was a very expensive gas stove.

3)  I would keep the kneed time to a minimum - 2 minutes exactly and do it by hand.  Its only a little extra trouble.  Again, this is a subtlety thing.  People who don't make a lot of pizza or eat a lot of Chicago Style pizza probably wouldn't even notice the difference.  If you absolutely must mix it using a mixer, cut the kneed time down to 1 minute. 

4)  Substitutions are encouraged.  If you like the way olive oil tastes, use that.  I personally use a mix of corn oil and olive oil but hey, to each his own.

DKM should weigh in too - after all it is his recipe.

[Slamdunkpro]

1)  As far as sticky dough, did the dough stick to the sides of the bowl?  What I am getting at is was the dough truly too wet or was it an oilier dough than you are used to working with…..

Yes, I had bowl stick – the dough was too wet. The final wet texture was more plastic but I expected that – So far I seem to be on the right track 

2)  I don't think the pizza pan is going to make the difference between an undercooked pizza and a done pizza.  The pan adds something very subtle that most people who don't make pizza all the time wouldn't even notice.  The important thing is that you are using a well oiled pan with straight up and down sides.  Did you have the pan on the bottom rack?  Did you have the oven at 450 degrees truly?  Most people recommend preheating the oven for an hour before putting in the pizza.  The other thing to consider is that most oven thermometers are horribly inaccurate.  If I were you I would get an oven thermometer and check the temp of the oven after preheating for a while.  I have seen ovens be off by as much as 100 degrees - unfortunately one of these was a very expensive gas stove.

I guess I should have also added that the top was done – I think the top and upper sides would have been burned (toast) if I’d left it in until the bottom was done.

The pan has sloped sides, like a skillet thinking about it most pizzeria pans are straight-sided …hmmmmm.

Yes bottom rack, yes true 450 degrees yes pre-heated for 45 minuets. I’m a serious barbecue’r and as such have several laboratory grade thermometers for use in my pits, I do spot check my oven. According to my instruments I have a total over under +- of 3 degrees (1.5 in each direction) throughout the temp range – 200 – 550 and a 12 degree total sine variance(6 in each direction)  (which is very good). I even went so far as to map my oven when we bought the new range for zone variance.

3)  I would keep the kneed time to a minimum - 2 minutes exactly and do it by hand.  Its only a little extra trouble.  Again, this is a subtlety thing.  People who don't make a lot of pizza or eat a lot of Chicago Style pizza probably wouldn't even notice the difference.  If you absolutely must mix it using a mixer, cut the kneed time down to 1 minute.

4)  Substitutions are encouraged.  If you like the way olive oil tastes, use that.  I personally use a mix of corn oil and olive oil but hey, to each his own.
 

Interesting - Gee I guess I'll just have to try this again (darn! )

Thanks

Michael

[foodblogger]

I guess I should have also added that the top was done – I think the top and upper sides would have been burned (toast) if I’d left it in until the bottom was done.

A couple of things can fix this problem.  First, if you ever get to the point that the top is almost done and you don't feel that the crust is done, you can cover the top of the pan with a little aluminum foil.  Second, if you continually have this problem despite having a correct oven temperature (and I believe you do, see below), you could put a baking stone down and preheat it with the oven.  Cook the pizza on the baking stone for a while.  That might take a little tweaking to figure out how long to have it on the stone so that the bottom gets done at the same time as the top.

Yes bottom rack, yes true 450 degrees yes pre-heated for 45 minuets. I’m a serious barbecue’r and as such have several laboratory grade thermometers for use in my pits, I do spot check my oven. According to my instruments I have a total over under +- of 3 degrees (1.5 in each direction) throughout the temp range – 200 – 550 and a 12 degree total sine variance(6 in each direction)  (which is very good). I even went so far as to map my oven when we bought the new range for zone variance.

Holy Moly!  You've taken it one step beyond what I have ever even considered.  It was definately not a problem with temperature then.
The other question would be did you have the topings too thick/wet?  That shouldn't have a major effect on the bottom being cooked but hey, its worth consideration. 

If you're that particular about the temperature of your oven then you will love the effects on your breads/pizzas when you start doing recipes by weight.  One thing that doing things by weight allows you to do is keep track of results over time in a journal and be able to repeat the results precisely the next time.

PS - I can see why you are so crazy about your oven temps being a BBQ'er.  That is how I figured out that my old oven was off by so much - using my BBQ thermometer to check the oven.

[DKM]

I’ve been making NY style for a while and thought I’d give Chicago a shot. I tried DKM’s recipe from the front page and while the results were OK (taste was great just a couple of textural issues) I thought that you pizza gods could field a few questions:

1.   The dough seemed sticky, I had to add almost an additional ½ cup of flour to get it to ball in the mixer (no I didn’t weight the ingredients – a scale has been ordered for next time)

You did the right thing.  I don't weigh stuff myself, I simply converted the recipe to weight for the benefit of those that like it that way.  The dough should feel soft and almost like it is going to stick, but it doesn't.

2.   I used a 14 inch commercial raw aluminum pizza pan straight on the racks of the oven (gas) and the pizza took almost an hour and was still a little undercooked on the bottom and sides.  I will procure a 14 inch black steel pan but I hate to just ditch the aluminum one – Would cooking with the aluminum pan on my pizza stone allow for better heat transfer to the bottom? Anyone try this using an iron skillet?

Some people here have used Iron Skillets with very good results.  The recipe makes enough dough for a 15" pizza, so if you put it in a 14" pan, the dough was probably too thick.

3.  DKM calls for a 7-minute machine knead yet several posters and recipes call for a shorter hand knead (I’m assuming for less gluten) thoughts?

My 7 minute knead is closer to the time I heard coming out of the Chicago stores, but the best thing to do is play around and find out what you like best.

4.  DKM calls for canola oil – can you substitute olive oil?

You can, but it will change the flavor of the pizza.  Again, try it and see how you live it.

DKM

[Steve]

[...] I’m a serious barbecue’r and as such have several laboratory grade thermometers for use in my pits [...]

What's the deal with pizza making and barbecue 

A lot of us here seem to be into barbecue... so much so that I put up a BBQ forum for us to play in (it's not very popular, but it does allow us to post our BBQ recipes!) 

If you want to check it out, hop on over to http://www.pitcooking.com 

[Slamdunkpro]

Steve, that’s easy – both pizza and BBQ are items that look simple but aren’t.

 I mostly post BBQ over at the smoke ring forum, but I’ll be happy to chat on yours as well

[Slamdunkpro]

Holy Moly!  You've taken it one step beyond what I have ever even considered.

Well, when our old oven died I wondered if there was a way to get someone else to buy me a new one so I pitched an article to a local paper about “real world” comparisons of the high end consumer ranges (Wolf, Viking, Thermador, etc) and the current consumer ranges. I went to several places where the different ones were installed and actually working and did some test cooking and measurements – the results were very interesting.

Also, as far at thermometers go, I’m doing some personal chefing and I carry a Maverick ET-73 as a base line instrument for use in client’s ovens.

[gottabedapan]

2)  I don't think the pizza pan is going to make the difference between an undercooked pizza and a done pizza.  The pan adds something very subtle that most people who don't make pizza all the time wouldn't even notice.

Gotta disagree vociferously: I have black steel, stainless steel, aluminum (anodized and non-anodized) and cast iron pans as well as cast iron griddles, and the pan makes a HUGE difference:

Cast iron browns the dough quickest, but you can end up burning the bottom before the dough cooks all the way through. When using a cast iron pand/griddle I either reduce the oven temp. by 50° or shorten cooking times by 8-12 min. vs. black stainless steel. If you like a crispy crust, cast iron is the way to go. At 450°, cooking time are in the 25-30 min.

Black steel and anodized aluminum perform very similarly, though I prefer black steel because I think it produces a slightly crisper crust and an airy-er texture. Cooking times at 450° are around 35-40 min.

Stainless cooking times are about the same as black steel and anodized alum, but I've never been able to get the bottom crust to brown in my stainless pan. (I've let pies go over 90 min—long enough for the sauce to dry out and burn—trying to get the bottom crust to brown.) Crusts are breadier and rise more than with black steel or anodized alum: more like a foccacia.

Non-anodized alum gives the densest crust (great if you like bready crusts, not so great if you're after a biscuity crust). Cooking times are in the 50-60 min. range.

[foodblogger]

I have black steel, stainless steel, aluminum (anodized and non-anodized) and cast iron pans as well as cast iron griddles, and the pan makes a HUGE difference

The difference between a cast iron skillet or griddle and a thin aluminum or steel deep dish pizza pan will indeed be noticeable.  Maybe I misread but I thought he was asking about the difference between an aluminum pan and a steel pan.  I agree that there is a difference between aluminum and steel but at least from my experience that is a relatively minor difference when compared to things like position in the oven, oven temperature, whether you use butter or oil in the bottom of the pan etc.  If your pizza isn't turning out at all - the top is roasted and the bottom is wet and doughy - you've got bigger problems to iron out than whether you used an aluminum or steel pan.

[Slamdunkpro]

So where does one aquire black steel pizza pans? The only one I've seen is the Chicago Metallic 14 inch but it's only 1 1/2 inches deep. I see Pizza Works has black aluminum in various sizes but no steel

To Foodblogger - the bottom was done, just not quite done enough.

[DKM]

I bought my pans on e-bay from a pizza hutt that went out of business.

DKM

[gottabedapan]

The difference between a cast iron skillet or griddle and a thin aluminum or steel deep dish pizza pan will indeed be noticeable.  Maybe I misread but I thought he was asking about the difference between an aluminum pan and a steel pan. I agree that there is a difference between aluminum and steel but at least from my experience that is a relatively minor difference when compared to things like position in the oven, oven temperature, whether you use butter or oil in the bottom of the pan etc.  If your pizza isn't turning out at all - the top is roasted and the bottom is wet and doughy - you've got bigger problems to iron out than whether you used an aluminum or steel pan.

Oven temp, position in oven, butter vs. lard vs. veg. shortening vs. oil, etc. do make a difference, but, in my experience, the difference between black steel and plain aluminum (non-anodized) is at least as significant a factor as any of them. You can end up with similar finished crusts, but it'll take longer using plain alum. than black steel. YMMV, but for me, cooking times run 15-20 min. shorter with black steel vs. plain aluminum.

Slamdunkpro, I bought my black steel and anodized alum pans from a restaurant equipment supplier that offers cash-n'carry.

[gottabedapan]

I bought my pans on e-bay from a pizza hutt that went out of business.

Pizza Hutt. Is he related to Jabba?

[DKM]

Yes.