Author Topic: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!  (Read 1656 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« on: April 28, 2013, 10:45:00 PM »
I stumbled upon a simply amazing dough quite by accident.  It started by adding a large amount of Ischia culture (in lieu of a poolish) to my pizza dough to generate some flavor in a small amount of time.  From there it progressed to extended fermentation time in the fridge, and the results are nothing short of fantastic (from my point of view anyway).  I'm going out on a limb to say that this is the simplest, most forgiving dough I have ever made...and so far every single pizza I've made using this process yields an eggshell thin crisp crust, with a very soft middle.....and need I say, the pizzas taste fantastic....

I've had to experiment to get the hydration correct as reballing is a major component of the process, and if the dough is too dry, it can be complicated....but, I think I have it just about right now...the process is easy!!

Here is the recipe I've developed using King Kaiser flour.....which is basically an All Trumps flour with ascorbic acid added.

Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (0.4%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Ischia culture (40% by weight of dough, the culture is cold and used right out of the fridge)

I'm sorry, I can't get the pre ferment dough tool to copy the formula correctly.

All ingredients are placed in the Kitchen Aid bowl...and using the paddle, the dough is mixed for 1 minute.  The dough rests 5 minutes...and then is mixed again for 1 minute.

The dough is placed on a slightly oiled sheet pan where it is stretch and folded at the 30, 60, and 90 minute mark.  At the 120 minute mark, the dough is scaled and placed in individual containers (unballed), and placed in the fridge for cold fermentation.  So far I have had them in the fridge up to 6 days with good results.  As the doughs ferment they will slowly rise and start to fill their containers.  The day before baking, I degas and reball my doughs.  The day of the bake, the doughs can be taken out 4 to 8 hours prior to bake with great results.  It can't be any simpler than this.

John

« Last Edit: April 28, 2013, 10:46:59 PM by fazzari »


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2013, 10:50:58 PM »
So, here are some doughs I made on Tuesday night, knowing I was having friends over for pizza on Saturday night.  The doughs were all degassed and reballed on Friday night....and were taken out of the fridge to warm up 7 hours prior to bake.


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2013, 10:57:04 PM »
When I say this is the most forgiving dough I've made yet...here is what I mean.  The following pictures are of a dough left over from Saturday night.....it sat at room temperature for 9 hours.  I simply degassed it, reballed it, and threw it back in the fridge to see what would happen the next day.  It was taken out of the fridge 5 hours prior to baking....and out came this wonderful pizza

John

Offline dellavecchia

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2628
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2013, 06:19:23 AM »
John - Fantastic pizza, especially the second set. Your workflow is classic bread making with an extended retardation.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2013, 07:56:24 AM »
John - Fantastic pizza, especially the second set. Your workflow is classic bread making with an extended retardation.

John

Interesting comment since I thought about trying this after reading a blog from thefreshloaf.com.  Accidental findings are very fruitful sometimes.

John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21896
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2013, 09:02:27 AM »
John,

Stellar results as usual.

Since the total formula hydration is affected by the water in the sourdough culture/preferment, can you tell us how much water is typically used in your sourdough culture? For example, for a 100-gram sample of your sourdough culture, how much water would be in it (by grams or percent)? Also, does the 40% figure you mentioned apply to the weight of all of the ingredients listed above the last line in your dough formulation? Or is it something else?

Finally, how much does a typical dough ball weigh, how many dough balls did you make, and what size pizza did you make?

Peter
« Last Edit: April 29, 2013, 09:28:22 AM by Pete-zza »

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #6 on: April 29, 2013, 10:36:53 PM »
John,

Stellar results as usual.

Since the total formula hydration is affected by the water in the sourdough culture/preferment, can you tell us how much water is typically used in your sourdough culture? For example, for a 100-gram sample of your sourdough culture, how much water would be in it (by grams or percent)? Also, does the 40% figure you mentioned apply to the weight of all of the ingredients listed above the last line in your dough formulation? Or is it something else?

Finally, how much does a typical dough ball weigh, how many dough balls did you make, and what size pizza did you make?

Peter

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):                  32.56 oz
Water (62%):                  20.19 oz
Salt (2.5%):                        .81 oz
IDY (.4%):                           .13 oz
Oil (2%):                             .65 oz
Sugar (2%):                       .65 oz
Total (168.9%):                55    oz
Single Ball:                       11 oz

Preferment:
Flour:                                 10.01 oz
Water:                                11.99 oz
Total:                                  22  oz

Final Dough:
Flour:                               22.55 oz
Water:                                8.2  oz
Salt:                                     .81  oz
IDY:                                      .13  oz
Preferment:                     22    oz
Oil:                                  .65  oz
Sugar:                             .65  oz
Total:                            55  oz



Here is the info......there seems to be a problem with the perferment dough calculation tool....it prints out correctly, but does not copy correctly...so had to do it manually.

Peter, I get an 11 ounce dough ball out to around 12 inches.  I'm not one for a floppy crust.  With the kind of texture this dough provides, it would be a shame getting it too thin.....that's how I like em anyway.

John

Online Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21896
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2013, 09:29:36 AM »
John,

Thank you for posting your numbers even though you had to do the layout manually.

This is what I got by plugging your numbers into the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, using the Copy feature:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (0.40%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (168.9%):

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

923.18 g  |  32.56 oz | 2.04 lbs
572.37 g  |  20.19 oz | 1.26 lbs
23.08 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.63 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
1559.25 g | 55 oz | 3.44 lbs | TF = N/A
 
 
283.78 g | 10.01 oz | 0.63 lbs
339.92 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
623.7 g | 22 oz | 1.38 lbs

 
639.4 g | 22.55 oz | 1.41 lbs
232.45 g | 8.2 oz | 0.51 lbs
23.08 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
623.7 g | 22 oz | 1.38 lbs
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.63 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
1559.25 g | 55 oz | 3.44 lbs  | TF = N/A
Note: Dough batch is for five dough balls, each weighing 11 ounces and usable to make a roughly 12" pizza; nominal thickness factor = 11/(3.14159 x 6 x 6) = 0.0973; the sourdough culture/preferment represents 40% of the total dough weight (55 ounces) and the % water in the sourdough culture/preferment =  54.5% (11.99/22); no bowl residue compensation

I believe that I have all of the numbers correct so that anyone should be able to use the preferment dough calculating tool to come up with the ingredient amounts to make any number of pizzas of any desired size.

Peter

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #8 on: April 30, 2013, 09:36:32 AM »
classic bread making, but also very varasano (if it was sped up a little and wetter).   

I would love to hear how you feed/deal with your starter.   In my experience this has a lot to do with the final outcome of doughs, and I would assume even more so since you are using quite a lot of starter.     

thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us john, you are an amazing asset to this forum!     

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #9 on: April 30, 2013, 10:34:24 AM »
John,

Thank you for posting your numbers even though you had to do the layout manually.

This is what I got by plugging your numbers into the preferment dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/preferment_calculator.html, using the Copy feature:

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (.4%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (168.9%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

923.18 g  |  32.56 oz | 2.04 lbs
572.37 g  |  20.19 oz | 1.26 lbs
23.08 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.63 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
1559.25 g | 55 oz | 3.44 lbs | TF = N/A
311.85 g | 11 oz | 0.69 lbs
 
 
283.78 g | 10.01 oz | 0.63 lbs
339.92 g | 11.99 oz | 0.75 lbs
623.7 g | 22 oz | 1.38 lbs

 
639.4 g | 22.55 oz | 1.41 lbs
232.45 g | 8.2 oz | 0.51 lbs
23.08 g | 0.81 oz | 0.05 lbs | 4.14 tsp | 1.38 tbsp
3.69 g | 0.13 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1.23 tsp | 0.41 tbsp
623.7 g | 22 oz | 1.38 lbs
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.1 tsp | 1.37 tbsp
18.46 g | 0.65 oz | 0.04 lbs | 4.63 tsp | 1.54 tbsp
1559.25 g | 55 oz | 3.44 lbs  | TF = N/A


Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #10 on: April 30, 2013, 10:39:50 AM »
classic bread making, but also very varasano (if it was sped up a little and wetter).   

I would love to hear how you feed/deal with your starter.   In my experience this has a lot to do with the final outcome of doughs, and I would assume even more so since you are using quite a lot of starter.     

thank you so much for sharing all your knowledge with us john, you are an amazing asset to this forum!   

Scott
I'll be making a batch of dough tonight, and so last night I took my culture out of the fridge and fed it to make sure there is plenty.  I then let it set out a couple hours before refrigerating until tonight.  That's all I do.  And then tonight, after using what I'll need, I'll feed it, let it set out a couple hours and refrigerate until next week.

John

Offline scott r

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 3061
  • Age: 43
  • Location: boston
  • I Love Pizzafreaks!
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #11 on: April 30, 2013, 10:40:31 AM »
do you measure your feed amounts?   

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2013, 11:58:38 PM »
do you measure your feed amounts?

Nah, I just add water and flour to make a thick pancake batter consistency.
« Last Edit: May 01, 2013, 12:05:52 PM by fazzari »

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2013, 10:56:02 PM »
I have continued to work with this dough and have tried various things that didn't work well.  I've tried deleting the yeast, and I've tried deleting the oil, but the end product is just not as good.  But, I have slowly upped the hydration to a point that I would call perfect.  I need some help though....I am new to sour dough and I am searching for some kind of explanation for some things I observe.  First of all, the dough feels completely different, it is very strong and would stretch forever with the perfect hydration.  Second of all, the dough doesn't blow....even though you leave it out at room temp for 8 hours, it looks like its blown, but it simply decompresses to make the most amazing pizza.

Again the work flow:  put all ingredients in kitchen aid bowl and mix with paddle for 1 minute.  Rest 5 minutes... Mix with paddle 1 minute.  Stretch and fold every 30 minutes for 90 minutes.  After 2 hours, scale, containerize and refrigerate.
The day before usage, ball the dough and refrigerate.  Before baking take out of fridge 3 to 8 hours to sit at room temp.  This pizza was stretched to 12 inches and was baked in my home oven (620 degrees)
John

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (.4%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.9%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

547.43 g  |  19.31 oz | 1.21 lbs
350.35 g  |  12.36 oz | 0.77 lbs
13.69 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
2.19 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.43 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
935.55 g | 33 oz | 2.06 lbs | TF = N/A
311.85 g | 11 oz | 0.69 lbs
 
 
170.27 g | 6.01 oz | 0.38 lbs
203.95 g | 7.19 oz | 0.45 lbs
374.22 g | 13.2 oz | 0.83 lbs

 
377.16 g | 13.3 oz | 0.83 lbs
146.4 g | 5.16 oz | 0.32 lbs
13.69 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
2.19 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
374.22 g | 13.2 oz | 0.83 lbs
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.43 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
935.55 g | 33 oz | 2.06 lbs  | TF = N/A

« Last Edit: May 16, 2013, 10:58:39 PM by fazzari »

Offline norma427

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21593
  • Location: Lancaster County, Pa.
    • learningknowledgetomakepizza
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2013, 09:17:07 AM »
John,

That is an amazing looking pizza!   :chef:

Norma
Always working and looking for new information!

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #15 on: May 17, 2013, 11:41:46 PM »
John,

That is an amazing looking pizza!   :chef:

Norma

And might I add...extremely easy to make!
John

Offline DenaliPete

  • Supporting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 278
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #16 on: June 05, 2013, 10:25:43 AM »
I have continued to work with this dough and have tried various things that didn't work well.  I've tried deleting the yeast, and I've tried deleting the oil, but the end product is just not as good.  But, I have slowly upped the hydration to a point that I would call perfect.  I need some help though....I am new to sour dough and I am searching for some kind of explanation for some things I observe.  First of all, the dough feels completely different, it is very strong and would stretch forever with the perfect hydration.  Second of all, the dough doesn't blow....even though you leave it out at room temp for 8 hours, it looks like its blown, but it simply decompresses to make the most amazing pizza.

Again the work flow:  put all ingredients in kitchen aid bowl and mix with paddle for 1 minute.  Rest 5 minutes... Mix with paddle 1 minute.  Stretch and fold every 30 minutes for 90 minutes.  After 2 hours, scale, containerize and refrigerate.
The day before usage, ball the dough and refrigerate.  Before baking take out of fridge 3 to 8 hours to sit at room temp.  This pizza was stretched to 12 inches and was baked in my home oven (620 degrees)
John

Total Formula:
Flour (100%):
Water (64%):
Salt (2.5%):
IDY (.4%):
Oil (2%):
Sugar (2%):
Total (170.9%):
Single Ball:

Preferment:
Flour:
Water:
Total:

Final Dough:
Flour:
Water:
Salt:
IDY:
Preferment:
Oil:
Sugar:
Total:

547.43 g  |  19.31 oz | 1.21 lbs
350.35 g  |  12.36 oz | 0.77 lbs
13.69 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
2.19 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.43 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
935.55 g | 33 oz | 2.06 lbs | TF = N/A
311.85 g | 11 oz | 0.69 lbs
 
 
170.27 g | 6.01 oz | 0.38 lbs
203.95 g | 7.19 oz | 0.45 lbs
374.22 g | 13.2 oz | 0.83 lbs

 
377.16 g | 13.3 oz | 0.83 lbs
146.4 g | 5.16 oz | 0.32 lbs
13.69 g | 0.48 oz | 0.03 lbs | 2.45 tsp | 0.82 tbsp
2.19 g | 0.08 oz | 0 lbs | 0.73 tsp | 0.24 tbsp
374.22 g | 13.2 oz | 0.83 lbs
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.43 tsp | 0.81 tbsp
10.95 g | 0.39 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2.75 tsp | 0.92 tbsp
935.55 g | 33 oz | 2.06 lbs  | TF = N/A

John,

Somewhere I am struggling with reading your formula, I dunno why.  Is your starter weight still about 40% the weigh of the flour?  I think the flour/water component for your preferment throws me off for some reason.

How dormant is your starter when you use it from the fridge?

I'm eager to give this a shot, as your dough sounds very manageable around a flexible schedule, and it looks delicious.

Pete

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #17 on: June 05, 2013, 03:10:05 PM »
John,

Somewhere I am struggling with reading your formula, I dunno why.  Is your starter weight still about 40% the weigh of the flour?  I think the flour/water component for your preferment throws me off for some reason.

How dormant is your starter when you use it from the fridge?

I'm eager to give this a shot, as your dough sounds very manageable around a flexible schedule, and it looks delicious.

Pete
Actually, the starter is 40% of the "dough" weight.  I've had to guesstimate the hydration of the starter as I don't weigh anything when I refesh it.  You'll have to experiment a bit to get the right hydration for the dough based on your starter.  But for my starter the above recipe is ideal.  I try to refresh my starter the day before I use it...let it set out a couple hours than back in the fridge until usage the next day or two.

John

Offline fazzari

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 901
Re: sour doughs....they aren't just for wfos any more!!!
« Reply #18 on: June 09, 2013, 10:29:33 PM »
After working another week on my newest dough, I finally realize...this dough does "not" need to be reballed to give me the texture and color I love.  I should have known this would probably be true, because when it is scaled after mixing, it is loaded with gases.  Anyway, the following dough was in the fridge 108 hours.  It completely rose and filled the container it was in.  I took it out 1 hour prior to bake, stretched it and baked in a 560 degree oven.  It has excellent oven spring and the bottom is flawless...crispy, tender...and of course how can you miss with flavor using a super starter.
John