Author Topic: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................  (Read 2676 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 848
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #20 on: June 11, 2013, 03:05:52 PM »
G.R.;
Bouncer flour is only in the 11.5 to 12% protein content range so it just barely qualifies as a "high protein" flour (whatever that is). Since you are using a bagged flour there is a possibility that the flour has dried out to some extent, thus increasing the absorption characteristics of the flour. For starters, this is what I would do:
1) Increase the total dough absorption to 62% of the total flour weight.
2) Put the water (65F) in the mixing bowl first, then add the salt and sugar, followed by the flour and IDY.
3) Mix the dough for 2-minutes at low speed, then pour in the oil.
4) Switch the mixer speed to medium and continue mixing just until the dough takes on a smooth, satiny appearance. The window test is not needed for pizza doughs since they are undermixed.
5) Immediately after mixing, measure the dough temperature. You are looking for something in the 80 to 85F range.
6) Immediately after mixing, scale and ball the dough and place into dough boxes. Wipe the top of each dough ball with salad oil.
7) Place dough boxes as they are filled into the cooler and cross stack. Allow the boxes to remain cross stacked for 2.5-hours, then down stack and nest/cover the boxes.
8) The dough will be ready to use after 18-hours in the cooler, and will keep for up to 72-hours or more.
9) To use the dough, remove a quantity from the cooler and allow to temper AT room temperature for 2-hours before opening into pizza skins.
10) The dough balls will remain good to use for about 3-hours after you begin opening them.
11) Any unused dough balls that are at 3-hours (at room temperature) can be opened and placed onto a pizza screen and stored in the cooler on a wire tree rack for use later in the day.
12) To use the pre-opened dough balls just remove from the cooler and allow to temper AT room temperature for 30-minutes, then remove from the  screen and touch up to desired diameter, then dress and bake in your normal manner.
NOTE: If you are not letting the dough temper at room temperature the dough balls will be difficult to impossible to open in a pizzeria setting.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor


Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 21186
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #21 on: June 12, 2013, 09:36:34 PM »
Tom,

I believe that the Bouncer flour has a protein content of 13.8 +/- 0.3%.

Peter

Online scott123

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6339
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2013, 12:45:35 PM »
With many ingredients and additives, I know there is controversy and misplaced regards of health concerns (nitrites for instance) but there are also appropriately placed concerns.

TD, this might help you put this into a bit better perspective.  There is some evidence that nitrites, when exposed to high heat, form cancerous nitrosamines. There's also evidence that charring meat produces carcinogens as well. One could definitely argue the level of impact these foods make, but there's enough evidence that if someone's really worried about cancer, they probably should limit their intake and not go overboard with nitrate cured and grilled meats.  To an extent, there's data behind these fears.  With bromate, there's absolutely no data supporting the danger of the parts per billion of bromate in pizza crust. As we speak, California, the biggest fear monger of them all, allows as much bromate in water as ends up in bromated flour pizza crust- and this isn't just tap water- this is bottled water as well.

I kid you not, this forum has members who rail against the dangers of bromate- all while eating pepperoni and bacon without a second thought.

Now, I'm not bashing bacon, I would never dream of shunning it- or for that manner, paying top dollar for the nitrite free stuff.  But if someone did want to go the tin foil hat route, they should be registering their bacon/pepperoni intake years before noticing the bromate in their flour.

Online dmcavanagh

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 1866
  • Location: Glenmont, NY
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #23 on: June 14, 2013, 01:14:36 PM »
I love my bromated occident flour, if it kills me, I'll die happy! :-D

Offline dhorst

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 643
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #24 on: June 14, 2013, 01:24:00 PM »
I love my bromated occident flour, if it kills me, I'll die happy! :-D
I agree, DMC!
For the love of Aleppo chile, ask and you shall receive.

Offline Trickydick

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 49
  • Location: Central Florida
  • I Love Pizza!
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #25 on: June 23, 2013, 11:06:13 PM »
Not to hijack, but seems fairly played out.  I got some all trumps to try using. Thanks for the input.

TD

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 848
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2013, 09:08:19 AM »
G.R.;
A number of years ago we developed a process to help newbies open the dough into pizza skins with a much more consistent cross section thickness. We have demonstrated that we can train a total novice (someone who has never opened a dough ball into a pizza skin) in about 15-minutes in the "art" of opening dough into pizza skins. The procedure is simple, but as you have noted, it does require the use of a sheeter/dough roller. Using the sheeter, set the rolls to open the dough to about 2/3 of the desired finished diameter, then finish opening the dough by hand to the final size. Works like a charm! At A.J's here in Manhattan, Kansas we are constantly training K-State students to work at the dough bench so we are always training someone. That 15-minute time might even be a little on the long side. We typically run the dough twice through the sheeter to get a round shape of the correct diameter, we pre-sheet about 6 dough pieces and stack them up next to the sheeter, then we start bench stretching to finished size. For appearances, we finish with a hand toss.
If you want to learn more about pizza production we have our annual Practical Production Technology and Innovation course coming up October 28 - November 1, 2013. To get information on this course please send an e-mail to Jeff Zeak at <jzeak@aibonline.org> .
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8931
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2013, 12:51:06 PM »
G.R.;
A number of years ago we developed a process to help newbies open the dough into pizza skins with a much more consistent cross section thickness. We have demonstrated that we can train a total novice (someone who has never opened a dough ball into a pizza skin) in about 15-minutes in the "art" of opening dough into pizza skins. The procedure is simple, but as you have noted, it does require the use of a sheeter/dough roller. Using the sheeter, set the rolls to open the dough to about 2/3 of the desired finished diameter, then finish opening the dough by hand to the final size. Works like a charm! At A.J's here in Manhattan, Kansas we are constantly training K-State students to work at the dough bench so we are always training someone. That 15-minute time might even be a little on the long side. We typically run the dough twice through the sheeter to get a round shape of the correct diameter, we pre-sheet about 6 dough pieces and stack them up next to the sheeter, then we start bench stretching to finished size. For appearances, we finish with a hand toss.
If you want to learn more about pizza production we have our annual Practical Production Technology and Innovation course coming up October 28 - November 1, 2013. To get information on this course please send an e-mail to Jeff Zeak at <jzeak@aibonline.org> .
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor
Great info Tom; thanks!   I have thought to try this before but was worried because one often hears a lot of talk about trying to press the air bubbles out from the center to the cornicione area to get the nice puff. Myself, I don't really see any air/bubbles moving around and try as I might I just can't seem to get the hang of "proper" opening technique. Hope this new way works good.  :chef:
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2013, 05:15:15 PM »



Mr Lehmann;
I am at 58% hydration right now, and the dough feels real sticky and almost too wet to me already, I fear that if I go up to 62% I may have something closer to a pancake batter on my hands.
My flour is coming from Sysco, so I wonder if there may be a problem with my supply line that I cannot rectify?
My mixer finish temps have been coming out at 84-86 degrees (non-contact IR thermometer, and probe) it gets scaled and balled immediately, oiled, and in the cooler ASAP, It is workable as an emergency dough, but seems to be at its best after retarded 12-24 hours, and it lasts 4 days before it blows out too badly.

At anything over an hour at room temp, I am seeing much more rise than I'd like to have, should I back down on my IDY or maybe on my sugar content?
My original dough formula required fresh cake yeast, I changed to IDY due to doubts in freshness from my available suppliers in this area,  and maybe I got the conversion wrong and I'm heavy on yeast?
I used to be able to store my dough in a cooler, and work it cold right out of the cooler to form a beautiful pizza. I also used to put my scaled/balled dough on floured sheet pans, and dust some flour on top for storage. I now use dough boxes and oil as per your instructions and like not having crusty balls. (wait, maybe I better rephrase that last sentence)
To make my formula more workable, and still keep it so it does not tear when stretched, I'm guessing upping the hydration, does oil, sugar, and or yeast content make a dough more or less workable? I'd like to have more salt for flavor, but I do not know what that would effect in workability qualities.
I played with my mixing times, and found that I was where I wanted to be at with the appearance/feel. I am currently at a 14 minute mix in my Impasti spiral mixer.

Thank you,

As per other items;



Its been about 3-4 weeks since I've had a chance to get back here (getting my butt kicked at the restaurant, and our wedding season catering is killing us too) I had kicked the pizza plan to the curb due to lack of available/qualified labor available in this area. Currently, my entire kitchen staff has less than 10 days under their belts in a restaurant operation, so the 85-90 hour weeks are taking their toll on me.
 It seems to be a localized thing with labor in this area. Tourist towns can be like that.
2 weeks ago, I called in 12 applicants for interviews, one guy actually showed up wearing bathroom slippers, pajama bottoms, and a bathrobe (I have pictures to prove it) of the 12 applicants that I called in, 4 showed up for their interviews, I hired all 4 of them, ONLY 1 of the 4 actually showed up for work when scheduled and this did not come as a surprise to me/us.

Anyways, everybody that has applied as a "Pizza Guy" that I have interviewed has either only been using frozen pre-formed crusts (sysco, reinhart, etc) or if there is fresh dough in their previous experience, it got run through a sheeter to an oversize diameter, and then it got cut to size. Just Not what I want for a pizza at my place!!

So, I started trolling Domino's hoping to get a few bewildered employees out of there, and I got one, a good one! The guy had a 16" skin opened in less than 60 seconds, it was even, it was round, it was beautiful, I almost cried from happiness. Turns out he's an ex Marine, and he is now serving in the army reserves (I'm even happier now that I have a veteran employed)
So we are finally going live with our pizza 1 week from tomorrow! ) 08-07-13 
The only thing this guy needed some practice on was portioning fresh sausage since he was only used to working with  pre-cooked dog-kibble that those chain places use. He has some concerns about proper bake times since he has never used a deck oven, So we'll be baking pizzas for a few days before offering them on the menu so he gets used to not having a conveyor oven handling his timing. 

As for my dough, the 50/50 mix of bouncer & APF has got me close enough to where I want to be, I'll be creeping back on the APF as he gains more experience and hopefully I'll be able to tweak my formula to have a flavorful, workable dough without mixing any flours.
I'm gonna give all trumps a shot, and a few others that I found which are available to me in 25# bags (i'm limited by only having a 30Qt spiral mixer right now) and get that flavor/texture I remember from back in the day.

A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2013, 04:46:14 PM »
Tom, I am going to try upping to 62% hydration today, I plan on making a 10# batch with Bouncer, I have 50 pounds of All trumps being delivered tomorrow and we'll give'r a shot with that tomorrow, I figured we'll do pies on Sunday evening only until I build that up, and by then I should have some people trained to handle it.
I have a sheeter, I don't want to use it, but if it helps noobs out to get a decent skin, I'll do it.

Thank you
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8931
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #30 on: August 05, 2013, 09:36:45 PM »
Are you sure your "help wanted" ad reads pizza trainee and not professional clown?  ::)

pj's and a bathrobe, eh?  I'll bet his parents are real proud.  :(
« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 09:39:15 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline GotRocks

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 252
  • Location: up to my butt in snow
  • Trying to get financing sucks!
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #31 on: August 05, 2013, 10:29:21 PM »
Well, upping my hydration was the fix I needed.

I ended up mixing way longer than I expected to get the feel I wanted, it balled up nicely, and after a very brief rest under refrigeration, I opened up a skin perfectly right out of the cooler.

Dough Problem Solved!!

Labor problems; Unsolvable at this point.
 My domino's guy turned out to be a bit odd. He felt that having the title of "Manager" was worth more to him than the $1.75 more per hour that he was going to get paid with me.
He didn't want any responsibilities associated with being in a management position, he just wanted the title. Geesh, maybe I should gotten him a little gold plastic name tag that said 'Manager" on it, and started him at minimum wage instead?

 Plus he was bothered that our dough is stretched on a granite surface with flour instead of  corn meal.
 I explained that we use a light ducting of corn meal on the peel, but I do not want a crust covered in corn meal because I find it very unpalatable.

So, Starting Sunday the 11th, I will start pizza operations by myself at 5:00 PM until 10 PM on Sunday evenings only. Maybe I'll be able to build this end of the business up where it will attract some seasoned pizza guys to us without me actively looking for them.
Wish me luck guys! Come hell or high water, I will be putting quality pizzas out.
A skinny cook is not to be trusted!

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 8931
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough consistency problems, I need help....................
« Reply #32 on: August 06, 2013, 08:27:29 AM »
Good deal Rocks. I think it is very advantageous to be able to open a dough straight out of the cooler. Have never really understood all the fuss about adding the complications of "tempering" the dough out on the counter for "x" amount of time.
Get your dough right, pull from the cooler and get on with the business of making pizza...easy peazzy.  ;D
Good luck on your Sunday evening trials man....I think you'll have fun now that you gave Bozo the boot!  :chef:   Now you can buy yourself one of those gold plastic badges.  :-D     Badges?....we don't need no stinking badges!!
« Last Edit: August 06, 2013, 08:29:34 AM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


 

pizzapan