Author Topic: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?  (Read 824 times)

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CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« on: January 19, 2015, 11:51:33 PM »
Still trying to make sense of NP's on my BS, and I'm not there yet. Having tried a nice long RT and then being disappointed by the soft texture of the pie, and the blandness of the crust compared to the rich, complex flavors I get with 5 day CF's with KABF (or other BFs). I tried a test with the 00 dough , 62% HR, .05%  IDY,   RT at 40 hrs (seemed like it was ready at that point), then put into CF at 33-35F for 5 days (during  CF I saw almost no activity, so overfermenting wasn't probably an issue).


Today I baked this on BS at approx 800  for about 90 secs. I looked like an NP (sorry no pix) but it didn't have great OS or puffy cornice, and while the texture was as I have seen NP's to be,  soft and droopy, with the sauce and toppings just cooked...the crust had essentially no flavor whatsoever.

So, in my attempt to add flavor to the dough with a 5 day CF, like I do with BF's, did I pretty much just make things more tasteless and flatter?

Does 00 flour just nor respond to a long ferment as does BF?

Is there another way to get flavor into the crust..or am I expecting a flavor that isn't possible?   I have lots to make visual comparisons here, but can't taste what I'm seeing online, so I don't know how far off I am..


Offline Iowamcnabb

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #1 on: January 21, 2015, 11:31:32 PM »
I get a lot of flavor out of my 00 flour with the 48 hour ferment although I am using a starter.  I read on here some of the Naples guys are experementing with adding different wheat flours to the 00.  Have you tried a mix?

Offline vtsteve

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2015, 06:13:08 AM »
You don't mention how much salt in your dough - most of the heavy hitters are using 2.5-3% salt for Neapolitan.

Offline mbrulato

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2015, 07:32:25 AM »
Bill,

VtSteve is right.  I just looked at Craig's dough formula as a reference point - he uses 3% salt and a starter.  I haven't made too many NP pies, but this is the formula I use when I do.  The starter just gives the crust a taste that leaves me wanting more.  IMO, that is what a good pizza will do. 

Maybe some day I'll have a Blackstone to try it on.  I'll be on the lookout for your next experiment.
Mary Ann

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2015, 08:54:25 AM »
Wait...there's salt????  :D

Thanks Mary Ann, VtSteve, Iowamcnabb

I clearly made a mistake on this last test and came in way low at 1.64%..But the time before that, was probably too high at 3.23 %..So I can see that needs to be watched.

As far as the starter, looks like  I need to get on that.  ( I do have my homemade starter , but though it makes great bread (I think), my success using it in pizzas..even when very active, is not impressive     .Can I get the Ischia going this time of year in the Northeast? I seem to recall something about needing 90F temps for getting it started...Inside turned-off oven with light on?

Iowamcnabb..I did try a version that was half bread flour and half 00..I preferred it to the straight 00 version but liked it less than when I used BF alone. Will try that with a starter when it's up and going.

Thanks for the advice, guys!



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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2015, 08:55:52 AM »
I've been using 2.8% for the past year or so, but I'd say anything between 2.8% and 3.2% is "normal."

I don't know what sort of '00' flour you are using, but I'm guessing it's not malted; this could be contributing to the flavor differences. Also, and I've never thought about this before, the high temp-short time bake may develop different flavors as compared to a more NY-style bake profile. On the surface, you may have more malliard reaction with the longer bake. Inside, the crumb is different between NY and NP. Moister and softer in the NP if nothing else - maybe that effects the perception of taste?
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2015, 09:33:29 AM »
Craig---

As a (my usual) disclaimer...I am but a boy..a pie boy, but a boy (an old boy) so I'm no expert at this stuff...And I so appreciate your advice!

First, I'm using Anna 00 flour because that's what's readily available at the supermarket while I'm learning..If I can actually get good at these and enjoy them, I'll happily switch to Caputo..But am I corrrect in that by definition 00 flour is unmalted?

Yes, what you're mentioning here is totally in line with what I'm learning about temps/bake times. I did a test of two different doughs, one with AP No-knead technique (or lack of technique  ;) , 3% VWG, .1% IDY, 1.43% salt (low, right?), 70% HR. The other BF with three stretch fold, no VWG, salt and yeast the same as above. Both fermented at RT for 28.5 hours, then balled and refrigerated for 6 days. 

One dough ball of each was baked on steel with starting temp IR'd at about 620. I didn't note the bake times but these usually run around 4.5 or 5 minutes with oven set at 550, then switch to broil for two minutes or a bit less until desired doneness and char. Interestingly the AP version had a bit more crunch, and slightly more OS..but both were delicious and had a nice complexity of flavor.

The next morning, I took the two remaining balls and baked them on the Blackstone..I'm still in the learning stages..but when I baked these I was really green..So I baked them (incorrectly, but usefully for this discussion) at a starting temp of between 750 and 800 degrees. Were they done? Oh yes..Looked okay, good OS..but all the nice crunch of the night before, and all those nice complex flavors..were nowhere to be found. From exactly the same doughs, and with only a few hours longer in the coldest part of the fridge..so there would have been very little change in the dough between the inside and outdoor bakes.

And yes, I think the moister and softer aspect is certainly  a part of my taste/flavor perception..And it may be an acquired taste.

Regarding the use of starter, which I know you use, the the other posters were  suggesting..will the difference in flavor between IDY and starter be a dramatic one? I know you recently baked some pies with IDY and noted you definitely preferred the starter versions...But were the IDY pies tasteless and bland? I don't recall you mentioning they were... I guess I'm asking, is my biggest problem the use of IDY instead  of Ischia..or is it that I'm possibly not yet appreciating the flavors of an NP? (which means I'll have to either eat a whole lot of them..or none ;)

Thank you!

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2015, 10:06:41 AM »
'00' is a milling specification. I don't think it specifies no malt. The picture of the new Caputo NY pizza flour I saw said '00' on the bag, and my understanding is that it is malted. http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,36229.msg360794.html#msg360794 That being said, I don't think you will find a lot of malted '00'. For all I know, the new Caputo flour is the only one. It's easy enough to tell if yours is; it will list "malted barley" or something like that on the ingredient statement.

I'm not sure there is a simple answer to your starter question. I could make a starter pie that tastes all but identical to IDY, and I could make one that tastes dramatically different (not necessarily better). Your workflow affects the taste of an IDY pie as you have seen, but the range is fairly tight compared to what you can coax out of a starter - now throw in that there are dozens of different starters you can buy or get from other people or make your own. In my experience, both IDY and SD can make a great pie. With respect to NP, I like my best SD pie better than my best IDY pie. I might call the difference dramatic, but I'm not sure the average person would. I've found that I actually prefer IDY in my Johnny's clone. With DS, I don't have a preference. I use my SD when I make bread, but I use IDY when I make naan.
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2015, 10:25:59 AM »
Thanks Craig...This is all a lot of fun to learn and play with  I've got to give the Johnny's clone a try after seeing your  great posts ..I see a nuinber of versions of the formula..Could you or someone point me to the newest/best version (looks like i'll have to dig out the rolling pin, right?)


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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2015, 10:33:27 AM »
Jersey Pie Boy:

I keep wondering if you are pursuing something that is a unicorn - a Neapolitan with strong dough flavor and a lot of crunch that you will like.  You have mentioned in another thread that you were underwhelmed in trying Paulie Gee Neapolitan. 

Maybe it is not "your thing" and you will not like it unless you mold into not being a Neapolitan.  If you do not prefer Neapolitan, then you are not defective and your pizza making may be just fine.  Some people like broccoli and some don't, etc.

I hold up members jsaras and tinroofrusted as examples.  They both have Blackstones (the tool) and the talent to make a good Neapolitan.  But, I do not know if I have ever seen one from them.  I surmise that it is because it is not their preference.  Yet, they make great looking pies and clearly know what they are doing.

The same dough baked at a lower temperature and a higher temperature gave you different textural results and maybe flavor, too.  That is what happens when you bake a Neapolitan - it is softer and droopy and (IMO) the flavors are more subtle.

Sourdough will definitley give you a different flavor and maybe you will like it better in the Neapolitan.  Same comment though for the non-Neapolitan. 

Maybe you don't like 'em!!!!
Mitch

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2015, 11:35:13 AM »
I have made precious few Neapolitan pizzas.  They're not my favorite and my wife really doesn't like them.  Gotta play to my audience.

Thanks for the vote of confidence
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2015, 11:47:38 AM »
Thanks Craig...This is all a lot of fun to learn and play with  I've got to give the Johnny's clone a try after seeing your  great posts ..I see a nuinber of versions of the formula..Could you or someone point me to the newest/best version (looks like i'll have to dig out the rolling pin, right?)

I don't think there are multiple versions - just the one on the first page. Use a TF=0.070. You don't have to use the rolling pin, but it will be different if you don't.

http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,33831.0.html
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2015, 12:21:04 PM »
Thanks Craig--That's the one I saw...I've enjoyed the Scholl's poolish version from sfpanky, and also Forkish's poolish..This will be a good  one to try next.  Yours look amazing! Actually taking a week off from pizza eating to avoid wifely burnout..I saw her eyes glaze over after last weekend's pizza venture, so we'll eat some non-pizza for a couple of weeks (I'll be sneaking pizza when she's not looking  ;)

Mitchjg..I'm sure you're right...I guess I was thinking I should like NP's since they're so popular here on the board ...and now, my secret is out ;)  But I still think I want to learn to make good ones for the craft of it..and for others to eat.   So I want to be sure I'm getting the best results. I think a trip to a really good NP place will give me a good baseline to shoot for .  And as noted, a good starter is on the shopping list.

Thanks!

Offline mbrulato

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2015, 02:23:48 PM »
I think a trip to a really good NP place will give me a good baseline to shoot for .  And as noted, a good starter is on the shopping list.

Thanks!

Bill,

There's a great NP place called Urban Fire in Madison.  They use yeast but their crust is good.  Lots of topping options to choose from.  The owner is a nice guy.  His name is Anthony and he used to work for Paulie Gee in Brooklyn.  I've been there a few times and enjoy their pizza.  Another place that you might try is Ah'Pizz in Denville.  We went there on Saturday night.  We had a pizza as an appetizer and got pasta for dinner.  Although their food was good overall, I'm not sold on their NP pizza yet.  Another visit or two may be in order  ;D. There's also a place called Millie's in Morristown that I believe has NP pizza but I haven't been there...yet.

Just a few suggestions for you to try NP.


Here's a link to a review I posted on Urban Fire over the summer.  http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,32444.0.html

Edit:  All 3 places I mentioned serve other food items besides pizza which might help to convince the Mrs. that you need to go  ;)
« Last Edit: January 22, 2015, 02:27:18 PM by mbrulato »
Mary Ann

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #14 on: January 23, 2015, 11:50:07 AM »
And so..from the hall of neither fame..nor, I hope, shame..I continue.

Next test NP. just.baked this AM on BS..just a single DB

Anna 00 flour 100% .... 150 gms
Hydration 62 %  @ 70F...93 gms
Salt. 2.86%................4.39 gms
IDY     .1%                .15 gms

Hand-mixed, briefly kneaded, rested, kneaded and 3  S/F's. Fermented (half the time bulk, then balled) for 32.5 total hours, then CF for 26.5 hours at 34F, then 3 hours on counter at about 62, then bake in BS.

I think I missed the official mark of an NP..though not on purpose. I IR'd the stone at 820F in the center, then launched. Didn't read temp again until after pie had been removed, instead managed the bake by eye. I also forgot to have a timer handy, so I counted..one-thousand one, one thousand two..Yeah, not highly accurate science  :)  Far as I could tell, I pulled the pie right about 2 minutes, but of course that could be a bit off.

Pros and cons: First, I think I'm a little bench-floury..I couldn't taste it, but I can see it, and I wish I'd gotten more off. The pie was quite easy to work with, very extensible but not weak as far as I could tell. I've noted many times here my non-preference for a soft crust..potentially banning me from currently  enjoying a true NP. This one was not as soft as the first few I attempted, which baked faster. So, I think officially, it's not as "right" but I found it had a nice bite to me..the tiniest bit of crunch, some nice chew, not heavy..but also can be picked up (carefully, sorta) and eaten, without knife and fork. So I'm not sure if i misread the IR gun..or if I need to bake a bit hotter than 800,,maybe 850? to get closer to correct. On the other hand, to me, this was a pretty good-tasting pie.  The cornice is not as puffy as I'd like..In the photos below, I showed the most puffed area, but the rim was inconsistent. I was careful when shaping, so I'm not sure if I was a bit off, or the workflow is responsible for the lessened OS. Or did I need more heat for the OS as well as the lighter texture. The bottom char seems a little heavy around the rim..maybe I needed to move the pie more while baking

The toppings win no prize..this pie was destined to be a test not a meal, so i used what was around. Didn't want to open a nice can of my 6 in 1's, so I spooked on some Barilla pasta sauce that was in the fridge, a couple of thin slices of deli provolone and some good fresh mozzarella from Costco. Funny thing was, it really didn't taste too bad.

Anyway, thanks for reading/looking...This was my most encouraging use of the 00 flour so far.

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #15 on: January 23, 2015, 04:44:39 PM »
That would be "spooned" on

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #16 on: January 23, 2015, 05:29:21 PM »
Rather than make corrections via an additional post, you can modify your original post within 24 hours.  Less confusing that way.  (I had to look carefully to find out what you were correcting in the first place).  The link is in the upper right of the post.

- M

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #17 on: January 23, 2015, 05:56:05 PM »
Jersey Pie Boy:

I keep wondering if you are pursuing something that is a unicorn - a Neapolitan with strong dough flavor and a lot of crunch that you will like.  You have mentioned in another thread that you were underwhelmed in trying Paulie Gee Neapolitan. 

Maybe it is not "your thing" and you will not like it unless you mold into not being a Neapolitan.  If you do not prefer Neapolitan, then you are not defective and your pizza making may be just fine.  Some people like broccoli and some don't, etc.

I hold up members jsaras and tinroofrusted as examples.  They both have Blackstones (the tool) and the talent to make a good Neapolitan.  But, I do not know if I have ever seen one from them.  I surmise that it is because it is not their preference.  Yet, they make great looking pies and clearly know what they are doing.

The same dough baked at a lower temperature and a higher temperature gave you different textural results and maybe flavor, too.  That is what happens when you bake a Neapolitan - it is softer and droopy and (IMO) the flavors are more subtle.

Sourdough will definitley give you a different flavor and maybe you will like it better in the Neapolitan.  Same comment though for the non-Neapolitan. 

Maybe you don't like 'em!!!!

IMO, you are spot on Mitch.  Sometimes you just can't fight your natural preferences.   I want to love Neapolitans and have even tried to make one or two recently, but I'm torn.  I love the fresh flavors, but I haven't fallen in love with the texture yet
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 05:58:27 PM by jvp123 »
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #18 on: January 23, 2015, 06:39:12 PM »
We like them a lot more now than we did in the beginning.  I think it was a combination of 2 things: 1) I doubt I made them as well then as I do now (gosh, I hope so) and 2) we have acquired a taste, grown to appreciate them - initially, we did not get it.  Pizza was NY pizza.  Period.

I like Neapolitans a lot now but I am not sure if I "love 'em" and not sure they are my favorites.  You have seen that most of my pies are cooked in the 700s, whether you call them Neo-Neapolitans, NY Elites or "whatevers."   I like switching up and learning.  I am making some Neapolitan doughs tonight for Sunday dinner and will also use it as an opportunity to diddle around with the Central Milling 00 I picked up recently.

What I have not done for a very long time is make a NY pie in the home oven at 500, nor have I moved the WFO that low.

I think it is completely fine that Jersey Pie Boy is pursuing this so that he "Can" or for Guests or to really figure out what he likes.  If he likes them, great.  If not, great......
« Last Edit: January 23, 2015, 06:41:33 PM by mitchjg »
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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2015, 06:41:41 PM »
Sure Mitch, though I guess I'm a little confused..I wasn't correcting the original post but adding a new example of the next pie.. What would be the correct way to do that to make it simpler to follow? Thanks

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Re: CF after RT..too long, or too wrong?
« Reply #20 on: January 23, 2015, 06:44:20 PM »
Oh, sorry...you just meant the "spooned" note. Okay, got it