Author Topic: lard in dough  (Read 2847 times)

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Offline vincentoc13

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lard in dough
« on: May 07, 2013, 12:45:31 AM »
If I'm going to use lard in dough how should I apply it?  Melt it or solid.

Thank you,

Vince


Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2013, 12:48:23 AM »
Melted.

Offline Gramsci

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2013, 04:30:01 PM »
I would not melt it. Could increase the dough temp quickly. Instead I would rip off pieces, like tearing a ball of fresh mozzarella. I have mixed roll dough with lard or as they say Strutto in Italian.

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2013, 04:50:10 PM »
Wire whisk room temp into the flour.
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Offline TXCraig1

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »
I would not melt it. Could increase the dough temp quickly. Instead I would rip off pieces, like tearing a ball of fresh mozzarella. I have mixed roll dough with lard or as they say Strutto in Italian.

Say you have a 60% hydrated dough and use 2% melted lard and 2% salt, the lard represents 2/164 <= 1.2% of the total mass. I don't think you need to worry about it overheating the dough.
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2013, 05:19:19 PM »
I think the lard can be used in either solid or liquid form and, as Craig mentioned as I was composing this post, in the amount it would be used (a few percent), I wouldn't expect the dough temperature to rise much because the lard was melted. At one time, Sbarro used lard to make its NY style dough. I read on the forum that Sbarro discontinued using lard in about 1987, and apparently in some stores the lard was replaced with butter. I don't recall reading whether the lard (or butter) was solid or liquid. Norma did a fair amount of experimentation with a NY style dough using a liquid lard (manteca). The thread in which she discussed her experiments, at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.0.html, makes for an interesting read. Apparently, the liquid form of lard, such as Norma used, has a more pronounced flavor impact on the finished crust. The solid deodorized lard commonly sold in supermarkets had a less pronounced effect on crust flavor. Tom Lehmann commented on this matter in his PMQ Think Tank post at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=10010&p=69404&hilit=#p69366. At another PMQTT post, at http://thinktank.pmq.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=4034&p=22953&hilit=#p22953, Tom says the that the "plastic" type fats, which includes lard, can be added directly to the dry ingredients. If I were to select a lard to use today, it would be the more or less liquid type sold as Manteca in Hispanic markets.

Member Matthew has reported that he uses lard in many of his doughs, which he described as a "rendered pork fat that I buy from a specialty supermarket", and he also referred to it as strutto (see Reply 36 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg137875/topicseen.html#msg137875).

Peter

Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2013, 07:37:04 PM »
Thanks guys,

at La Reina Mexican market close to my house they cook Carnitas in big pots and save the rendered fat to sell to the public, when I make certain Mexican recipes I use this pork rendered fat.  I wonder if this would be a suitable manteca for NY style dough being that when they make Pork Carnitas they usually add ingredients in order to get the flavor they want.  I think they use oranges, but its not really noticeable, the Carnitas are really good and you cant really pinpoint any type of ingredients they use, it just taste like yummy pork goodness.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2013, 07:55:20 PM »
at La Reina Mexican market close to my house they cook Carnitas in big pots and save the rendered fat to sell to the public, when I make certain Mexican recipes I use this pork rendered fat.  I wonder if this would be a suitable manteca for NY style dough being that when they make Pork Carnitas they usually add ingredients in order to get the flavor they want.  I think they use oranges, but its not really noticeable, the Carnitas are really good and you cant really pinpoint any type of ingredients they use, it just taste like yummy pork goodness.
Vince,

Having tried the regular solid supermarket lards and not seeing a big improvement, at least in the amounts I used, I think I would give the La Reina rendered fat a try. Maybe you can try both forms of lard and see if you can detect a difference.

Peter

Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2013, 08:37:05 PM »
Peter,

I think I'm going to go with the La Reina manteca, it just sounds better and like I said it doesn't have a real strong flavor.  it's crunch time for me though, I have to pick out a recipe from the NY style for this weekend it will be a first for me cause I'm still a newbie and I'm still trying to figure things out. 


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #9 on: May 07, 2013, 08:48:04 PM »
There is a "solid form" grocery store "Manteca" made by Armour and this is what I would recommend.  It incorporates better than liquid if you are going the whisk into flour route.  ;)
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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #10 on: May 07, 2013, 09:34:39 PM »
Manteca is Spanish for "lard". Since Hispanics have typically been big users of lard (and many still are), the producers make sure to put the word manteca on their packaging materials, usually in big letters. So, as best I can tell, the Armour product is the deodorized form that does not have a lot of flavor. The liquid manteca, which Norma used without incident, produces good crust flavor from what Norma and her taste testers reported.

Peter

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #11 on: May 07, 2013, 09:41:15 PM »
Manteca is Spanish for "lard". Since Hispanics have typically been big users of lard (and many still are), the producers make sure to put the word manteca on their packaging materials, usually in big letters. So, as best I can tell, the Armour product is the deodorized form that does not have a lot of flavor. The liquid manteca, which Norma used without incident, produces good crust flavor from what Norma and her taste testers reported.

Peter
OK great, so all's we got to do now is figure out how to turn that light brown stuff solid.  ;D
Norma....!!!???
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Offline norma427

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2013, 10:25:22 PM »
OK great, so all's we got to do now is figure out how to turn that light brown stuff solid.  ;D
Norma....!!!???

Bob,

I sure don't know how to make the manteca turn solid, but I will be watching this thread.  I do have some Goya lard in my fridge, but I don't know what would happened if I tried that solid in a dough.

Norma
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Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #13 on: May 07, 2013, 10:53:10 PM »
Bob,

I sure don't know how to make the manteca turn solid, but I will be watching this thread.  I do have some Goya lard in my fridge, but I don't know what would happened if I tried that solid in a dough.

Norma
Well, you are quite the experimenter so I say what the heck; give it a go. :chef:
Unless it is maybe Peter's "deodorized form"...that sure doesn't sound appetizing now does it; wonder how many folks have used that anyway?  :)

Besides, you have a natural feel for pizza making Norma...you know what to try an not; wish I had your knack for dough making girl.  8)
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Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in doughs
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2013, 11:08:34 PM »
The manteca that my family and I have used since I was a kid is in the solid form, if left out at room temperature it is just like butter.  I have never seen liquid manteca, but I'm going to the Mexican market and try to find it.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2013, 11:28:28 PM »
My local joint's Manteca is solid(very light tan) on the bottom half an the upper half is tan colored semi- liquid...I guess YMMV.  ::)
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Offline norma427

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2013, 07:09:17 AM »
Thanks guys,

at La Reina Mexican market close to my house they cook Carnitas in big pots and save the rendered fat to sell to the public, when I make certain Mexican recipes I use this pork rendered fat.  I wonder if this would be a suitable manteca for NY style dough being that when they make Pork Carnitas they usually add ingredients in order to get the flavor they want. 

Vince,

Your rendered pork fat sounds good.  Will be interested in how it makes a pizza taste.  Good luck!  ;D

Norma
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Offline norma427

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2013, 07:17:05 AM »

Well, you are quite the experimenter so I say what the heck; give it a go. :chef:
Unless it is maybe Peter's "deodorized form"...that sure doesn't sound appetizing now does it; wonder how many folks have used that anyway?  :)


Bob,

I think the Goya refined lard I have is the "deodorized form".  Maybe Chau has a good formulation to try. Saporito Foods also offers a deodorized lard.  http://www.saporitofoods.com/product_deodorized_lard.html

Norma
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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2013, 11:57:40 AM »
Today, while I was at my local supermarket that caters mainly to Hispanics, I decided to check out all of the fats, both lards/mantecas and shortenings.

With respect to the lards/mantecas, the long and short of it is that there are two forms, one solid and one liquid. What differentiates the two is the use of hydrogenation of the fats, which solidifies them. The Armour brand is one of the solid forms. It comprises lard and hydrogenated lard. As one might expect, the usual suspects, like BHA and BHT, are added, supposedly to “protect flavor”.

I found two brands of the liquid lards/mantecas, the Chema brand (which I reported on before in another thread), and a house brand. The mantecas (labeled Manteca de Puerco) were in 28-ounce plastic containers. The description of the product was “Rendered pork skin fat”. BHA and BHT are also used but no hydrogenation. The fat itself actually comprises two parts, one that is fairly thick (yet still a liquid) and tan in color, and an oily, thinner reddish liquid on top. Volume-wise, I would say that the two fats were about equal. I decided to shake one of the containers to see if I could combine the two fats. A worker (a Hispanic woman) who was stocking shelves nearby saw me doing this and perhaps asked herself “ˇAy, caramba! What is this crazy Gringo doing to my beloved manteca?” But, she politely intervened and told me in broken English that if I microwaved the manteca it would become more liquid and blend more easily. I thanked her for the advice but I kept shaking the container until the two fats did finally combine, with the result being a mixture that was like a pancake batter but quite a bit thicker. It still had an overall tannish color. I thanked the worker again before she could summon a manager because of my molestation of their manteca, and exited stage right in the direction of the shortenings shelf.

With respect to the shortenings I looked at, I found one brand (Mrs. Tucker’s) that is made using meat fats and vegetable oils. I did not see the word hydrogenation but rather mono- and diglycerides, which are known emulsifiers. Preservatives were also listed on the label. I squeezed the package and it had a little give to it so maybe the product is not quite as solid as the lard/mantecas like the Armour product.

Peter

Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2013, 10:18:10 PM »
Hi Norma,
I didn't get the manteca that I usually get, but the market that I went to today is just as good if not better, so I bought there manteca. I'm trying NY style for the first time in my WFO, making dough tonight for Saturday pizza.

Thanks,

Vince

Offline norma427

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2013, 08:28:06 AM »
Hi Norma,
I didn't get the manteca that I usually get, but the market that I went to today is just as good if not better, so I bought there manteca. I'm trying NY style for the first time in my WFO, making dough tonight for Saturday pizza.

Thanks,

Vince

Vince,

The manteca you purchased looked something like mine before I refrigerated it at Reply 49 http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,13668.msg138158.html#msg138158  Are you going to just add the manteca without refrigerating?  I don't know which way would be better. 

What temperature are you baking your NY style pizzas in your WFO.  If it is at a higher temperature you might have to watch your bottom crust for too much browning and maybe slide something under the pizzas is the bottom browns too much.  I am not sure what would happen with manteca in a dough in a WFO.

Looking forward to hearing about your pies.  I sure would think the crust would have a better flavor from the manteca.  The small Mexican store where I purchased my manteca flooded from a bad rain storm and then closed down and I never found manteca again.

Norma
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Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #21 on: May 12, 2013, 10:36:45 PM »
Norma,

Here are the result of my first NY pie recipe in my WFO.  I used the same one you did with your UBM recipe and I followed Peter Reinharts work flow.  The manteca was in liquid form, so I just mixed it with a spoon to get everything looking consistant then mixed in with all the ingredients as Peters requires.

My oven temp was anywhere from 550 to 590, it seems as though the bottoms did not get done as much as I would have liked, but it was my first time, so I will forgive myself.  The dome was around 850, it just seems like the cheese was just bubbling too much and I had to remove the pizza or it would have burned, even though the bottoms weren't where I wanted them to be.

OK, so the picture of the crumb shot did not come out that great, but the flavor was good, it had subtle rich flavor going for it
with a very, very slight crunch.  I was looking for something with more of a crunch to it, but no too much, just a little more than what it had.

Everyone loved the pizza! they went on, and on about it, so I didn't want to tell them I have a long way to go to get it where I want cause they would have thought I'm crazy.  but believe me I know I will get there.

Vince.

having problems loading pictures, doing it on tablet maybe that's why?

« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 10:40:36 PM by vincentoc13 »

Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #22 on: May 12, 2013, 10:42:02 PM »
more pics
« Last Edit: May 12, 2013, 10:43:58 PM by vincentoc13 »

Offline vincentoc13

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #23 on: May 12, 2013, 10:59:10 PM »
sorry, here is crumb shot

Offline norma427

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Re: lard in dough
« Reply #24 on: May 13, 2013, 07:52:59 AM »
Norma,

Here are the result of my first NY pie recipe in my WFO.  I used the same one you did with your UBM recipe and I followed Peter Reinharts work flow.  The manteca was in liquid form, so I just mixed it with a spoon to get everything looking consistant then mixed in with all the ingredients as Peters requires.

My oven temp was anywhere from 550 to 590, it seems as though the bottoms did not get done as much as I would have liked, but it was my first time, so I will forgive myself.  The dome was around 850, it just seems like the cheese was just bubbling too much and I had to remove the pizza or it would have burned, even though the bottoms weren't where I wanted them to be.

OK, so the picture of the crumb shot did not come out that great, but the flavor was good, it had subtle rich flavor going for it
with a very, very slight crunch.  I was looking for something with more of a crunch to it, but no too much, just a little more than what it had.

Everyone loved the pizza! they went on, and on about it, so I didn't want to tell them I have a long way to go to get it where I want cause they would have thought I'm crazy.  but believe me I know I will get there.

Vince.

having problems loading pictures, doing it on tablet maybe that's why?

Vince,

Your results using manteca and Peter's conversion formulation of Peter's Reinhart's recipe sure looks great to me!  ;D

I think your crumb shot looks good.  I am glad you and your friends loved the pizza with the manteca.  I think it is hard to get a definite crunch in a pizza crust in a WFO.  My friend Steve (Ev) also thinks it is hard to get a crunch on the bottom, or even rim crust of a pizza baked in a WFO.  Maybe you will find a way to get that crunch.  My taste testers and I also thought manteca gave a subtle rich flavor to the crust.

I know you will get to where you want if you keep experimenting.  It's all the fun in the journey that is interesting and of course you get to eat the results.  :-D

Norma
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