Author Topic: Blackstone Pizza Oven  (Read 504282 times)

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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #750 on: July 05, 2013, 11:26:52 AM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but I thought Scott's statistics on the number of damaged units were quite interesting and telling. Admittedly, the sample size was small, but eight damaged/malfunctioning/incomplete units out of 26 sales to people who have knowledge and skill at pizza making strikes me as significant. If I were in the QA/QC department at Black Stone, I would want to see similar damage reports from elsewhere in their system and investigate what changes might be made to insure that future units are delivered intact. The motivation would be a profit motive. For a product that sells for $360 you aren't going to make money if units are damaged, malfunctioning and incomplete and have to be replaced or otherwise serviced.

I also did not react to Scott's comments on the future prospects for the Black Stone oven as negatively as others apparently have. I detected a tone of hopefulness and confidence in Scott's comments that our members will be able to master the Black Stone units to get the most out of them. I saw his comments as being aided and abetted by the knowledge that we have members like Chau who have amply demonstrated their prowess with ovens and pizza making. So maybe he was just nudging Chau on to apply his prowess to the greater possibilities of the Black Stone oven. On the surface, it would be hard to imagine that a $360 unit will be able to replicate what an Acunto oven that sells for thousand of dollars can produce. But I think that Scott sees something on the horizon that others may be missing. If it turns out that he is wrong, the answer will come in due course.

Peter


Offline communist

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #751 on: July 05, 2013, 11:32:37 AM »
I can't speak for anyone else, but I thought Scott's statistics on the number of damaged units were quite interesting and telling. Admittedly, the sample size was small, but eight damaged/malfunctioning/incomplete units out of 26 sales to people who have knowledge and skill at pizza making strikes me as significant. If I were in the QA/QC department at Black Stone, I would want to see similar damage reports from elsewhere in their system and investigate what changes might be made to insure that future units are delivered intact. The motivation would be a profit motive. For a product that sells for $360 you aren't going to make money if units are damaged, malfunctioning and incomplete and have to be replaced or otherwise serviced.

I also did not react to Scott's comments on the future prospects for the Black Stone oven as negatively as others apparently have. I detected a tone of hopefulness and confidence in Scott's comments that our members will be able to master the Black Stone units to get the most out of them. I saw his comments as being aided and abetted by the knowledge that we have members like Chau who have amply demonstrated their prowess with ovens and pizza making. So maybe he was just nudging Chau on to apply his prowess to the greater possibilities of the Black Stone oven. On the surface, it would be hard to imagine that a $360 unit will be able to replicate what an Acunto oven that sells for thousand of dollars can produce. But I think that Scott sees something on the horizon that others may be missing. If it turns out that he is wrong, the answer will come in due course.

Peter
I agree!

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #752 on: July 05, 2013, 11:48:33 AM »


I also did not react to Scott's comments on the future prospects for the Black Stone oven as negatively as others apparently have. I detected a tone of hopefulness and confidence in Scott's comments that our members will be able to master the Black Stone units to get the most out of them. I saw his comments as being aided and abetted by the knowledge that we have members like Chau who have amply demonstrated their prowess with ovens and pizza making. So maybe he was just nudging Chau on to apply his prowess to the greater possibilities of the Black Stone oven. On the surface, it would be hard to imagine that a $360 unit will be able to replicate what an Acunto oven that sells for thousand of dollars can produce. But I think that Scott sees something on the horizon that others may be missing. If it turns out that he is wrong, the answer will come in due course.

Peter
And that...you can take to the bank baby.   8)
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Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #753 on: July 05, 2013, 11:56:19 AM »
Peter, the knowledge and skill of the people buying the units is irrelevant.  We are looking at the number of total units sold vs damaged units.  Without knowledge or data of how many units are actually sold and returned/replaced, I don't know if Scott's percentages can be accurate.  They maybe, but again may not be.  I just don't see how we can say that 30% (I'm making this # up) of units sold are damaged or returned based on the number of members who have posted about their experience.  But I agree with Scott and a few others, that this unit is not a high end product.  Yes the stones could be thicker and the overall construction of the grill more sturdy.  Perhaps that and better packaging might mitigate some of the damages we are seeing.  But for what we are getting and what it is capable of, I'm not complaining.

Perhaps I misread Scott's posts.  It's nice that Scott is nudging me on to see what we can do with this oven, but I would do that regardless and he has a funny way of nudging.   :P  But as I posted earlier, it's not a matter of unwillingness or not enough motivation on my part.  If there is anyone here determined to make it work and get to the bottom of the matter as to whether or not a great NP pizza can be made in this oven, that would be me.  ;D  But I have different ideas of pizza than anyone else, so I am not going to spend my time trying to make my pies look like Craig's pies with this oven.  That's a fruitless effort IMO.  Not b/c Craig's pies are not worthy of emulation, but b/c of some limitations I spoke of earlier.  I was under the impression that Scott wants to see a duplicate of a Craig Pie from the BS oven.  I have zero doubt in my mind that we will see very high quality NP pizzas come from the BS soon enough, but I have doubts of a carbon copy of a Craig pie.  A carbon copy of a Craig pie  with the same leoparding pattern is unlikely b/c the 2 ovens bake very differently.  And don't get me wrong.  I didn't say that the BS wasn't capable of producting leoparded pies either.  And at the fraction of the cost of an Acunto, I think that is a big enough motivation for others to try considering what has been posted already.

Ok my panties are unbunched now.   :-D
Chau
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 02:01:25 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline Tampa

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #754 on: July 05, 2013, 12:19:41 PM »
Thanks for the post Pete-zza, and for keeping the peace.  There are a lot of good and smart people on this forum and sometimes I fear they might be put off by confrontation.  Loosing them would be unfortunate.  I'm a big fan of both parties, and for me, maybe just me, it got a little out of hand this time.

If we think ahead, it has only been 8 weeks since the first post and we already have 30 pages (750 posts) of enthusiasm in this thread.  The more we focus directly on this home oven, the easier it will be for current and future readers to ramp.

Back to great pizza....  Love the deflector addition and, like some I have had success with this before.  For me the challenge is that the angle of the deflector is touchy.  With a little ingenuity, perhaps that red-hot angle iron support bracket in the flame could be permanently bent away from the flame (a scoach) and a deflector could be added to keep heat off.  Even better, one might consider including a lever in the implementation to increase or decrease the amount of deflection toward the pie and set the rim char.  As others have found, the deflector is a bit finicky and it is rather easy to over char the rim.  I'll work on this idea at some point, but for the next few weeks I'm not near an oven or tools.

Dave

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #755 on: July 05, 2013, 12:30:30 PM »
For those reading this thread and don't know either Scott or myself, we are friends.   I have learned a lot from Scott over the few years on the forum and in person.  We don't always agree on everything and that's okay.  But yes, back to the pizza.  8)

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #756 on: July 05, 2013, 12:40:28 PM »
Chau, can we get a look at the deflector you have made?
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Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #757 on: July 05, 2013, 12:53:19 PM »
If we think ahead, it has only been 8 weeks since the first post and we already have 30 pages (750 posts) of enthusiasm in this thread.  The more we focus directly on this home oven, the easier it will be for current and future readers to ramp.
Dave,

As a Moderator, it is hard not to see how far and how fast this thread has progressed. I saw the same enthusiasm with the LBE (Little Black Egg) thread except there is a considerably larger number of members who are playing around with the Black Stone oven essentially all at the same time, with more members waiting in the wings. So, unless the Black Stone oven has a short existence, for whatever reason, this thread may have real legs. The LBE thread is the second most popular thread on the forum in terms of page views (279,153 page views as of this post) and third in terms of replies (2043). But it took over six years to reach these numbers. Any success of the Black Stone oven will perhaps mean a slowing of the activity on the LBE thread.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #758 on: July 05, 2013, 01:10:39 PM »
Chau, can we get a look at the deflector you have made?

I wanted to get a few more bakes with it first but since I took photos of it this morning,  I'll go ahead and post them. 


Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #759 on: July 05, 2013, 01:12:09 PM »
@Chau - so your pennies were minted before 1982?

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #760 on: July 05, 2013, 01:15:44 PM »
@Chau - so your pennies were minted before 1982?

Lol.  I don't know Jeffrey.  Hard to see the date on them now.   :-D. I assume after 1982, they are solid copper?   Twas an expensive lesson.  About 6 cents worth.  :-D
 

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #761 on: July 05, 2013, 01:16:25 PM »
@Tin, nice looking pizzas. Sad that you just barely posted those and they are already buried. Maybe we need just a straight pic thread to stare at  :-D

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #762 on: July 05, 2013, 01:17:34 PM »
Lol.  I don't know Jeffrey.  Hard to see the date on them now.   :-D. I assume after 1982, they are solid copper?   Twas an expensive lesson.  About 6 cents worth.  :-D
 

No, you used zinc pennies lol. Melting point of 787F. Just use nickels next time.

Online Pete-zza

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #763 on: July 05, 2013, 01:31:37 PM »
In your famous words Scott, anyone that can produce a carbon copy of a Craig pie from a BS oven, including dear Craig himself, I will EAT my BS oven.   :-D
I think Craig should be precluded from buying or using a Black Stone unit. As good and gracious a host that Craig is, I can't imagine members from all around the country flying or driving into Houston to attend one of Craig's Summits and gathering around a Black Stone oven in his garage or driveway waiting anxiously for his creations to emerge from the oven ;D.

Peter

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #764 on: July 05, 2013, 01:42:25 PM »
No, you used zinc pennies lol. Melting point of 787F. Just use nickels next time.

Thanks Jeffrey.  I used nickels in my LBE under the stone without any issue so I was a bit surprise to find the pennies had melted.

@Tin, nice looking pizzas. Sad that you just barely posted those and they are already buried. Maybe we need just a straight pic thread to stare at  :-D

I agree on a separate thread just for the pies.  I didn't see the wisdom in it earlier but I do now.

Peter, perhaps there will be a blackstone summit in the near future.  Lol
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 01:44:41 PM by Jackie Tran »

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #765 on: July 05, 2013, 02:18:30 PM »


Peter, perhaps there will be a blackstone summit in the near future.  Lol

The neat part about a BS summit would be people could throw them in their cars and bring them. Can you imagine having 3-4 of them and you could test your different hypotheses at the exact time? Test three different doughs side by side in the same cooking environment? Three different heat shield set ups on the same dough? I think it would be cool at least...

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #766 on: July 05, 2013, 04:42:07 PM »
@Tin, nice looking pizzas. Sad that you just barely posted those and they are already buried. Maybe we need just a straight pic thread to stare at  :-D

Thanks Jeff.  Got caught in the crossfire I guess.  I was pretty happy with the progress.  I am hoping to make some more this weekend. Planning on trying this calzone.

Regards,

TinRoof


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #767 on: July 05, 2013, 04:55:29 PM »
Thanks Jeff.  Got caught in the crossfire I guess.  I was pretty happy with the progress.  I am hoping to make some more this weekend. Planning on trying this calzone.

Regards,

TinRoof
When I read "calzone" I thought boy, 'ol Tin is getting pretty brave. Thanks for linking to that pic of John's calzone...wow! Never seen one look that good and it now makes perfect sense why you are going to try one. Good luck with your higher temp calzone; look forward to seeing it!  :chef:
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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #768 on: July 05, 2013, 05:04:15 PM »
Quote
When I read "calzone" I thought boy, 'ol Tin is getting pretty brave.

I think a short preheat and low flame will be in order for the calzone.  It will still probably cook in a flash.  C-Bob, did you order a BS oven? 

Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #769 on: July 05, 2013, 05:07:31 PM »
I think a short preheat and low flame will be in order for the calzone.  It will still probably cook in a flash.  C-Bob, did you order a BS oven?

What is your plan for the shape of the calzone so it will cook evenly? It seems as if this style really wants a round shape.

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #770 on: July 05, 2013, 05:13:12 PM »
What is your plan for the shape of the calzone so it will cook evenly? It seems as if this style really wants a round shape.
Long and thin I guess (but not too long; I don't want to be hitting the side of the oven).  I may get burned ends.  I can't think how I could do it round unless I put one skin on top of another. Kind of like a pie.   

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #771 on: July 05, 2013, 05:39:03 PM »
Okay, this should be my last post on these two topics  :)

Thermodynamics

In the past, I have been pretty skeptical of gas Ferraras.  I wasn't really seeing what I felt was a world class pie coming out of any of them, and, until I did, I wasn't going to give them my blessing.  While I'm still skeptical that existing gas models can match WFOs at their best, I have seen enough gas oven pies (due, in large part to the fire codes at the expo), that I can comfortably say that I'm okay with the concept of a gas ferrara.  I'm still a tiny bit leery of the number of BTUs these ovens are presently putting out and if it's sufficient enough to do world class pies day in and day out, but, if there is an issue, bigger or multiple burners will put that to rest (there probably isn't, but, still, I've got to see it). I have heard from NP purists who say that these ovens produce a pizza that's 'missing something,'  and I have my own niggling questions about the impact of the water derived from gas combustion, but, I still have a lot of hope for these ovens.

Thermodynamically speaking, there's no aspect of a blackstone that deviates from a gas Ferrara. Not a one. In the manner in which the heat is directed, the BS is a miniature replica of the Ferrara.

If a gas Ferrara can do a Craig style pie, then a BS can as well. It's just a matter of fine tuning.  Up until now, we're using the BS to paint with very broad strokes. There's a lot of nitty gritty waiting to be explored. We haven't scraped the surface as to what it's capable of achieving.

Nudging

I've been accused of being an armchair quarterback in the past, and, this is probably my most heinous transgression. I've never posted a photo of my pizzas here, I've never made Neapolitan dough myself, nor have I ever used a blackstone, but here I am telling Chau (and others) to strive to achieve the seemingly impossible with this unproven device, and if you can't or won't, faintly implying wussiness. I'm being such a jerk, such a horrible quarterback, I'm making Tim Tebow look good :)

In all fairness, though, Chau, you've kind of set a precedent for doing great things. Go ahead and toot your own horn, because you should. You don't have a huge number of NP pies under you belt, but there's nothing novice about you.  I'm specifically pushing your buttons, specifically insufferably goading you, because I see it in you. Up until recent months, you haven't, from what I've seen, been all that obsessive about NP, but it seems like you're catching the bug. You seem pretty amped, and, after the Summit, rightly so. I'm just trying to get you to take this fire (both literally and figuratively ;) ) and reach for something higher- something that I know that you're capable of.

Emulation/cloning can get the occasional bad rap.  I think there are a couple members who perceive it as being unoriginal.  I don't see it that way, at all. I see it as an essential tool for honing skills and expanding pizza making muscles. Every great painter, at some point, has mimicked another- and that mimicry has frequently helped them to further their own voice, their own originality.

There's a lot to be said for forging your own path, but there's also rewards in following the paths of others- and there is no law that say we can't do both. I make what are probably pretty pure 'Scott' pies, but I also throw in the Suvio's (local pizzeria) circa 1982 pie and a Joe's 1992 pizza. I can copy and I can be original- even during the same baking session.

On this forum, cloning has pushed the learning envelope tremendous lengths.  I know people have and will continue to disparage Papa Johns, but Peter's cloning adventures have, to a large extent, built this house. Those travails have laid the foundation for everything that we're currently achieving.

Rather than focusing on the fact that no-one has ever cloned Craig's work and drawing discouragement from it, I think the bigger question is "why the heck hasn't anyone cloned a Craig pie?" If members are going to spend countless hours attempting to clone commercial products where a tremendous amount of guesswork and trial and error is entailed, why shouldn't they try to clone a world class pie where every possible piece of information has been graciously and meticulously provided for them? As much as many of us would like to believe that Craig has superhuman powers, or that an Acunto (or a Ferrara) can make pizzas that no other oven can produce, his skills, over time, can be acquired and the thermodynamic equivalent of an Acunto obtained.

Just to be clear, I'm not telling anyone to 'be' Craig- I'm not pushing anyone into putting a BS in their garage, building a beautiful prep table and getting a chocolate lab and calling it 'coffee,' :) I just think that with all the hours this forum has put into cloning, a truly motivated member or two could, working with Craig, emulate his art.

This forum has many virtuoso pizza makers, and in your last post, you name a few, but what, imo, differentiates Craig from the rest is the extent of his consistency and originality. At this point, I can open up My Pie Monday, see the featured pie and know immediately and without any question that it's Craig's.  There's not a lot of pizza makers that make pies that are that recognizable.  His pies are so incredibly unique, consistent and recognizable, that, as far as I'm concerned, he deserves his own sub style of pizza: Craig style- pure NP, but signature Craig.

Craig is one of the best teachers on the forum. His talents in that area shouldn't just be utilized to make great NP, but to make his great NP pizza. With this much unfettered access to Craig, if there's any sub style of pizza that could be cloned, that should be cloned, it's Craig's. The pieces of the puzzle all exist:  a style worth emulating, a teacher fully capable of teaching it, and equipment capable of producing it.  Someone just has to put the pieces together.  It won't be easy, and the person that achieves it won't be a beginner, but, it can, and will be done.

18 months.  January 5th, 2015 :)
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 06:12:26 PM by scott123 »

Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #772 on: July 05, 2013, 05:39:43 PM »
Long and thin I guess (but not too long; I don't want to be hitting the side of the oven).  I may get burned ends.  I can't think how I could do it round unless I put one skin on top of another. Kind of like a pie.
I've had calzone from NY style pizzerias and they always just stretch out a regular round pizza skin; place toppings on one side then fold other half round dough over top and crimp...so that's how I always do them(usually from a bad launch of regular pie :D)
Maybe place 2 on the BS stone at one time...that will be round then.  ;D
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Offline jeffereynelson

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #773 on: July 05, 2013, 05:40:46 PM »
Long and thin I guess (but not too long; I don't want to be hitting the side of the oven).  I may get burned ends.  I can't think how I could do it round unless I put one skin on top of another. Kind of like a pie.

Ya, using a top and a bottom wont be ideal because then you don't get that great side where it isn't double thick. Maybe if you tried to open the skin into an oval to begin with? It would then come out more like a circle when you fold it.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 05:44:57 PM by jeffereynelson »

Offline DenaliPete

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Re: Blackstone Pizza Oven
« Reply #774 on: July 05, 2013, 05:46:43 PM »
Just to update my situation;

Cabella's has offered to replace the oven.  However, they are out of stock and will be that way until October.  Even then, there's no guaruntee in my mind that my oven would arrive intact, simply because of the shoddy packaging.

I have tried contacting Blackstone directly, but have not gotten anyone to answer the phone.

Has anyone had luck contacting blackstone at all?  Have we got any leads for what stones may make adequate replacements here?

I'm hesitant to ship this unit back to Cabelas if they can't send me anything until October. 


 

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