Author Topic: same recipe different fermentation periods.  (Read 1255 times)

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Offline thezaman

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same recipe different fermentation periods.
« on: May 12, 2013, 10:20:58 PM »
 dough age is the only difference in these pizzas. same hydration, same amount of dough balls. the first was made on Wednesday for friday the second Sunday morning for Sunday evening use. both tasted very good with the same day having more structure under the cheese and sauce area of the pies. the 4 day dough was much easier to cook at high temperatures. same day needed some off the floor time to balance it. if i had a choice i like the taste of the same day a little better, more bread like in taste and texture.
 


Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2013, 10:50:20 PM »
Is this what you expected?

Obviously - an insane amount of leoparding on the dough which was allowed to ferment for a long time - but it also looks a bit lifeless without good crumb structure - which may o may not be an issue depending on what you are trying to achieve.

I wonder if the solution to achieve both leoparding and good crumb is simply using the dough at a very specific point in it's fermentation or whether there is another varible that needs to be controlled.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #2 on: May 13, 2013, 01:38:40 AM »
but it also looks a bit lifeless without good crumb structure

Don't confuse soft for a lack of crumb structure. Pizza is not bread.


That first pie looks incredible Larry, particularly the cheese, sauce, oil, etc.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #3 on: May 13, 2013, 02:09:03 AM »
The 3rd photo shows much better rise in the border. Presumably, this would result in better crumb structure (structure with more holes)?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the pizza in the first 2 photos - but can you say it has good crumb structure?

Offline csafranek

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2013, 07:54:32 AM »
Personally that first picture looks perfect! Great job!

Offline Jackie Tran

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2013, 08:24:33 AM »
Looks and taste are two different things but everyone has different preferences for what textures they like in a crust.  Both pies look great Larry.  Thanks for the post.  I find it interesting that the younger dough had to be coddled during the bake.  ::)

Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #6 on: May 13, 2013, 10:16:05 AM »
The 3rd photo shows much better rise in the border. Presumably, this would result in better crumb structure (structure with more holes)?

I'm not saying there is anything wrong with the pizza in the first 2 photos - but can you say it has good crumb structure?

You can only tell so much from a couple pictures, but the first pie looks like it has plenty of lift. If you're basing your idea about the crumb on the cross-section in the second photo, I think what you're seeing is how the crumb was smashed down at the cut. My pies do this exact same thing. If you carefully tear them apart, you can see the structure, but it's way to soft to be cut and stand there like a slice of bread. That's part of what I mean when I write pizza is not bread. I don't think you should be able to cut a Neapolitan pizza like a slice of bread. I'm not sure we should even use the word "crumb" with Neapolitan pizza. It implies bready characteristics that NP should not have, IMO. NP should be soft an melt in your mouth. Part of what makes that happen is a "crumb" that looks like what we mean when we talk about good open structure, but part of what makes that happen is also what makes it difficult to see the crumb because it is too soft to hold open when cut.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Mangia Pizza

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #7 on: May 13, 2013, 02:15:54 PM »
Larry both look nice, but the first is more esthetically pleasing to my eye.....  good job!
Paolo

Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #8 on: May 13, 2013, 02:56:04 PM »
For a long time I have suffered from my borders being smashed down at the cut... and it saddens me - at least from an aesthetic point of view.  I wonder if when I see amazing crumb shots in photos somebody has cut the pizza in a clever way specifically to show off the crumb or whether they simply got lucky and thatís why they took the photo. This may be the reason Iíve moved towards a NP / NY hybrid pizza concept and sort a little crunch with a little exposure to the crumb - afterall in napoli the customers don't demand that the pizza is cut up into slices.

Anyway, surely the point is.. what is thezaman trying to achieve? the first looks da michele-esk and the second seems more generic - perhaps with a little more crunch?

Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #9 on: May 13, 2013, 03:25:12 PM »
For a long time I have suffered from my borders being smashed down at the cut... and it saddens me - at least from an aesthetic point of view.  I wonder if when I see amazing crumb shots in photos somebody has cut the pizza in a clever way specifically to show off the crumb or whether they simply got lucky and thatís why they took the photo.

I think, many of the crumb shots you see here are cut with scissors and/or pulled back open by hand before the picture is snapped. I also doubt very seriously that very many are from random points in the cornicione Ė rather deliberately cut though the biggest, puffiest points and are not particularly representative of the crumb of the pie as a whole.

With respect to Neapolitan pizza, I would also suggest that some of the crumb shots that look beautiful are probably sub-optimal from an eating standpoint.
Pizza is not bread.


Offline Chicago Bob

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #10 on: May 13, 2013, 04:06:18 PM »


With respect to Neapolitan pizza, I would also suggest that some of the crumb shots that look beautiful are probably sub-optimal from an eating standpoint.
Probably so if it springs back open on it's own(without hand manipulation for photo purpose); is this what you are referring to Craig?

Larry...Magnifico!!  :drool:
« Last Edit: May 13, 2013, 04:07:59 PM by Chicago Bob »
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Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #11 on: May 13, 2013, 04:14:21 PM »
Probably so if it springs back open on it's own(without hand manipulation for photo purpose); is this what you are referring to Craig?

For the most part, yes. [N]Pizza is not bread. It should not cut like bread.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #12 on: May 13, 2013, 05:05:28 PM »
Not sure if these are NP or NY or somewhere in-between - but I love the look.  The more info I get from this forum - the more I think I'm pursuing the impossible to have every pizza look like this - after it has been sliced up.

I agree - from an eating experience point of view they might not be spectacular - but I love the look. We tend to add salt to our borders pre-cook to make them more edible. Sadly, if they are not crunchy - the plate tends to come back with a pile of un-eaten borders - although as craig said - it could be that our dough is too bread like as opposed to melt in the mouth.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #13 on: May 13, 2013, 05:24:29 PM »
Not sure if these are NP or NY or somewhere in-between - but I love the look.  The more info I get from this forum - the more I think I'm pursuing the impossible to have every pizza look like this - after it has been sliced up.

It probably isn't possible to have every pie look like you want it to. Notwithstanding, long fermentation, careful opening and handling, and a little lower temp and longer bake than traditional NP (~650F for 3-4ish minutes), and you should be able to replicate that consistently.

There is nothing wrong with crunchy on the outside, chewy on the inside pizza bones. I love them too. It's just not NP.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #14 on: May 13, 2013, 05:43:26 PM »
Thanks Craig. I don't disagree. But, can I have the leopard spots too?

The following is still not clear to me...

If my desired level of leoparding occurs at a fermentation period much later on than the fermentation period which results in maximum oven spring - presumably it's just a case of striking balance where you are happy. Unless I'm mistaken - the pizza gods have not constructed a set of pizza rules such that these 2 desired phenomen tend to work in sync.

From my experience - maximum oven spring tends to occur at a fermentation period earlier on than maximum leoparding.

If I am die hard NP - and I do not seek maximum oven spring - this doesn't seem to cause a problem. But, why would we not want maximum oven spring and a good amount of spots? I mean... if the pizza gods allowed it.

For those that want a little crunch the pizza gods become even more cruel - given that crunch occurs at a slower cooking time/oven temp - which is not going to help the pursuit of leopard spots.

Online TXCraig1

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #15 on: May 13, 2013, 06:04:43 PM »
I'm not sure why spring and spots would be mutually exclusive. The laws of physics might have something to say about true leopard spots and crunch together, however.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline jamieg

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #16 on: May 13, 2013, 08:56:05 PM »
I'm not sure why spring and spots would be mutually exclusive.

With my current set up - it has been close to being mutually exclsuvie. I need to work out why that is.

Offline dellavecchia

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Re: same recipe different fermentation periods.
« Reply #17 on: May 14, 2013, 06:05:22 AM »
Larry - I love the look of the first pie. I would order that!

John