Author Topic: Dough turning into large flat blob  (Read 994 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline arewethereyet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Dough turning into large flat blob
« on: May 14, 2013, 03:13:53 PM »
I'm relatively new, so please go easy on me.

I've been using two methods for making my dough.  Method 1 takes more work, but I light the taste much better.  However, the dough is a pain to work with.  I'd love to figure out what I'm doing wrong in Method 1 to cause the dough to expand so much and be so soft.  Too much yeast?  Too much moisture?  Should I re-balling (I don't even know if that is an option)?

Method 1
I've been making dough with the following recipe:
500G Pendleton Pizza Blend Four
310G  100 degree water
2 Tablespoons of Honey
2 Tablespoons of Olive Oil
1 teaspoon salt
1/4 teaspoon garlic powder
1/4 teaspoon onion powder
2 teaspoons of red star active yeast

I mix 5, rest 1, mix 5, split into two dough balls, wrap in plastic wrap (lightly coated with cooking spray).  The dough balls sit on the counter for an hour and then go into the fridge for a day or two.

After sitting overnight in the fridge, these dough balls get so big (usually breaking through the plastic).  They also end up pretty soft.  They shape easy, but a little too easy for my liking.

Method 2

Mondako thin pizza mix

2:1 pizza mix to water, and I've got ready to go dough balls.

The dough seems fine, nothing to write home about.  Seems like the perfect dough for same day pizza/calzones.







Offline TXCraig1

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 12838
  • Location: Houston, TX
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2013, 03:50:46 PM »
By the time you figure in the oil and honey, your effective hydration is well north of 70%. That's a pretty wet dough. Garlic powder is also known to have a weakening effect on dough. Between the two, I'm not at all surprised that the dough is very slack.

I'd lower the water to 300g; cut out all the garlic and onion powder; and if you need the sweetness or browning, use sugar instead of honey. If they are rising too much, cut back the yeast. Two tsp sounds like an awful lot for a dough that is left at room temp for an hour.
Pizza is not bread.

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2013, 04:03:13 PM »
arewethereyet,

I have several other comments and observations to make but to complete the picture, can you tell me what size pizzas your are making?

Peter

Offline arewethereyet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2013, 04:06:20 PM »
Pizzas are 14".  Dough balls end up being 450g/each.

Not that it matters for this conversation, but I bake my pizzas on a stone at 550 degrees.  The coloring of the cooked pizzas are great.

Offline arewethereyet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2013, 04:10:14 PM »
Now that I think of it, the balls might weight 430g each.  When I use mondako, I shoot for 450g.

Offline The Dough Doctor

  • Tom Lehmann
  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 993
  • Location: Manhattan, KS
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2013, 05:03:29 PM »
In your Method #1 it appears that all of the water is at 100F. In most applications this results in a finished dough temperature that is way too hot to allow for decent dough management. It might work OK for an emergency dough that will be used in a very short time, but if the dough will be managed through the fridge, it probably won't cool off sufficiently fast to retard the yeast activity (this can be worsened if you put the dough into a covered container from the "get go"). This results in a dough that is what we refer to as "blown" or over fermented. The resulting dough can be so weakened by the excessive fermentation that it cannot rise, or rises insufficiently during baking, making for a flat pizza. To see if this might be your problem, try making a dough using 65 or 70F water, and leaving the dough uncovered for about 90-minutes in the fridge, then covering it to protect it from drying. If this is successful in preventing the dough from blowing, you can experiment with different finished dough temperatures to see what works best for your specific application.
Tom Lehmann/The Dough Doctor

Offline Pete-zza

  • Lifetime Member
  • Global Moderator
  • *
  • Posts: 22155
  • Location: Texas
  • Always learning
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2013, 05:11:17 PM »
arewethereyet,

I used the expanded dough calculating tool at http://www.pizzamaking.com/expanded_calculator.html and did some calculations to convert your recipe to baker's percent format. This is what I got:

Pendleton Pizza Blend Flour (100%):
Water (62%):
ADY (1.512%):
Salt (1.1163%):
Olive Oil (5.4%):
Honey (8.3916%):
Garlic Powder (0.15%):
Onion Powder (0.10%):
Total (178.6699%):
500 g  |  17.64 oz | 1.1 lbs
310 g  |  10.93 oz | 0.68 lbs
7.56 g | 0.27 oz | 0.02 lbs | 2 tsp | 0.67 tbsp
5.58 g | 0.2 oz | 0.01 lbs | 1 tsp | 0.33 tbsp
27 g | 0.95 oz | 0.06 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
41.96 g | 1.48 oz | 0.09 lbs | 6 tsp | 2 tbsp
0.75 g | 0.03 oz | 0 lbs | 0.32 tsp | 0.11 tbsp
0.5 g | 0.02 oz | 0 lbs | 0.02 tsp | 0.01 tbsp
893.35 g | 31.51 oz | 1.97 lbs | TF = N/A
Note: Dough is for two dough balls weighing 447 grams (15.76 ounces), for two 14" pizzas; nominal thickness factor = 15.76/(3.14159 x 7 x 7) = 0.10238; no bowl residue compensation.

As I was ready to post, I saw that Tom Lehmann made an appearance. Rather than revise my post, here are my thoughts and comments:

1. The above dough formulation is not a NY style dough formulation. The reason is mainly the high amounts of honey and olive oil. You might find a pizza operator or NY style dough formulation somewhere that uses honey, but not at about 8.4%. Sugar might be used but it is usually no more than 1-2%, and that is typically for a dough that is to undergo cold fermentation for longer than about two or three days. When oil is used, it is typically no more than 3% for a NY style. You are using about 5.4%. I would say that your dough formulation most closely resembles an American style, because of the high amounts of honey and oil. However, it is a thinner version of an American style pizza. I calculated a thickness factor of 0.10238. There are some NY style formulations that have a thickness factor that high, and sometimes even higher, but, more often than not, a NY style thickness factor is closer to about 0.08. So, in my opinion, you have a hybrid or cross between an American style pizza (because of the honey and oil quantities) and a NY style (because of the thickness factor).

2. Your formulation hydration is actually higher than 62%. When you take into account that honey has a water content of around 17%, that water, when added to the 310 grams of water in the formulation you posted, raises the hydration value to 63.44%. As Craig noted, in addition to the honey, the oil also has a wetting effect. Adding the 5.4% olive oil to the 63.44% figure, the "effective" hydration rises to about 68.84%, or very close to the number that Craig mentioned.

3. In general, your salt level, at 1.1163%, is on the low side. More typical, whether for an American style or a NY style (and other styles as well), is a salt level of 1.75-2%. Salt regulates the fermentation process by its affect on yeast, so where there is little of it, the dough can ferment too fast and rise excessively.

4. Your yeast (ADY) is also off the charts for a cold fermentation application. It is ever more than what is needed to make an emergency dough. Also, it appears that you used all of the formula water at around 100 degrees F. The recommended method for prehydrating ADY is to use a small amount of the total formula water at 100 degrees F and dissolve the ADY in that small amount of water. The prehydration should be for about 10 minutes. Once the ADY has been properly prehydrated, it can be then added to the rest of the formula water. The temperature of that remaining water should be established to produce a finished dough temperature of around 75-80 degrees F (this assumes you are using a standard home refrigerator to cold ferment the dough). In your case, when you used all of the water at 100 degrees F (or so I am assuming), and also let the dough balls rest for an hour at room temperature before refrigerating, you gave the dough a very fast head start toward fermentation. The fermentation was further exacerbated by the high amount of ADY you used. The collective effect of these powerful forces was to give you a dough that was programmed to go wild, even at the temperature of your refrigerator compartment. Also, because of your 63.44% hydration, the dough would ferment faster than it would if a lower hydration value were used.

5. Individually, the garlic powder or onion powder would be in the range as to keep the dough from becoming too soft because of the effects of those powders on the dough. But, together, they might have been a bit too much. As you can see from Reply 8 at http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,24608.msg249066.html#msg249066, the recommended amount of garlic and/or onion powder is 0.15%. You have been using 0.25%.

The above is to explain what has been going on with your dough, and to set forth some of the areas that you can adjust if you wish.

Peter


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10885
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2013, 05:14:44 PM »

2 teaspoons of red star active yeast


Is that a typo arewethereyet?

Bob
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"

Offline arewethereyet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2013, 08:25:17 PM »
Is that a typo arewethereyet?

Bob

I don't think so, is that bad?  Sounds like it might be.

Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10885
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2013, 09:11:29 PM »
I don't think so, is that bad?  Sounds like it might be.
Oh Lordie..... :angel:   Please read Peter's post a couple more times arewethereyet and with a 'lil luck we will be there.  :)
http://www.pizzamaking.com/forum/index.php/topic,25180.msg253893.html#msg253893
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"


Offline arewethereyet

  • Registered User
  • Posts: 6
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2013, 09:32:17 PM »
Thank you everyone who has responded so far.  I've been reading/replying from my phone, so I haven't had enough time to process all of the responses.

However, I think I understand the basics of how I've messed up. 

Couple quick questions.

If I get the cold fermentation process working correctly, what is acceptable time in the fridge?  24-72 hours?

With the dough the way I had it, it started to smell like beer after day 2.


Offline Chicago Bob

  • Lifetime Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10885
  • Location: North Carolina
  • Easy peazzy
Re: Dough turning into large flat blob
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2013, 10:15:06 PM »
Thank you everyone who has responded so far.  I've been reading/replying from my phone, so I haven't had enough time to process all of the responses.

However, I think I understand the basics of how I've messed up. 

Couple quick questions.

If I get the cold fermentation process working correctly, what is acceptable time in the fridge?  24-72 hours?

With the dough the way I had it, it started to smell like beer after day 2.
This is the beauty of fermenting pizza dough Are. Once you get your basic acceptable dough down; you are free to tweak it with minor separate incremental changes to tailor it into something you find to be awesome. A little chang with yeast, let's say, and play with longer an longer ferment time periods...etc. etc.   you get what I mean. ;)

PS:In other words, there is no set "acceptable time in the fridge"... you create/dictate the time.
For this particular formula Peter is trying to help you with...2-3 days is fine/safe until you get to know what to look for when enough is enough. Longer= flavor  ;)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2013, 10:24:07 PM by Chicago Bob »
"Care Free Highway...let me slip away on you"